• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

Design flaws in classic computers

And don't Talk about the Lenovo laptopls. Why the $#£¤% did they put those "next web-page" "previous web-page" buttons within the arrow keys. It's pretty annoying when you write a post or an email and accidently hit one of the buttons (you'll have to write the message all over again).

ive been there (i use a ibm t40) also dont likie the eraser mice that are too tall and rub a glossy spot in the screen like this one did. and on dells the blue erasers that are too big for the hole and move every time g,h, or b is pressed.

oh another flaw the compaq portable 486 using that weird hard drive power connector that only connor and some other drives haven, even though there's room for a full sized connector.
 
The first thing that comes to mind is the NeXT Cube MO drive.
Yes it was the first on the market and yes it was quite nice to use but here we are in 2009 and out of the thousands that were made, I only know of five or six that still work. All the others have died in some different way (won't load, won't read, won't eject, won't spin etc.).
It's a bad idea to put a drive that unreliable in a good system AND make it proprietary so you can't replace it with much else.

The second is the handwriting recognition on the Newton MessagePad. God damn it's so annoying that whenever I have to enter stuff in I just use the on screen keyboard.

Then there is Sync on green....I'm not going to touch that.
 
Interesting that no one has brought up the Commodore 1541's disaster of an interface. (The following summary is from memory, hopefully I don't get too many details wrong).

Commodore started early on with the (comparatively sane) choice of HP-IB (later "GPIB", later "IEEE-488") for their peripheral bus on the early machines. But then, the story goes, they got in trouble at one point because their single-source connector vendor ran out of stock, so Jack Tramiel freaked out and directed the VIC-20 folks to junk HP-IB and use a cheaper connector. So they had the bright idea of using the shift register on the MOS VIA chip to clock the HP-IB protocol bytes in via a serial connection on a DIN connector (pretty much the same choice Atari had made with their SIO bus).

So the PCBs went to manufacture, got stuffed, the software guys sat down to finish the driver work, and ... oops. The VIA had a bug: a hardware race led to dropped (duplicated?) bits if a clock edge landed too close to a read request. So rather than fix the problem, the VIC folks burried it: they used the same hardware interface, but drove the serial transmission in software via bit banging instead. Needless to say, that's a whole lot slower than the shift register that was intended in the design.

But it gets worse: MOS, of course, fixed the bug for the chipset used in the Commodore 64. But apparently compatibility with the old VIC drives was more important than fixing a huge performance problem, so Commodore made the decision to ship the 64 with the same dumb software serial implementation.

And it gets still worse: unlike the previous box, the 64's VIC-II chip needed to do sprite DMA in bursts, and would hang the CPU bus while it did it. So the CPU would freeze up for a dozen cycles or when this happened, and that was too long for the bit-banging routines from the VIC-20 to handle. So the solution? The 64/1541 slowed the drive communication down even more, to something like 3200 baud, thus shipping a drive that was barely faster than a cassette tape.
 
The second is the handwriting recognition on the Newton MessagePad. God damn it's so annoying that whenever I have to enter stuff in I just use the on screen keyboard.

Au contraire! I respectfully disagree. Of all the near-vintage tablets I own, the Newton 120 (ROM version 2.0) is by far the best. It outshines all of it's contemporaries. It ain't really fair to compare it to today's recognizers, but then again, from what I've seen, modern recog programs ain't much better.

I've heard that the first ROM was pretty bad tho, is that what you have?

--T
 
The 64/1541 slowed the drive communication down even more, to something like 3200 baud, thus shipping a drive that was barely faster than a cassette tape.

I concur. I never owned a 1541 disk drive until recently, when I started my collection. Previously I'd just used tape.

When I first went to load a program (Ghostbusters I think), I waited and waited...and waited. Finally I was convinced that the drive was actually broken/lockedup and I was JUST about to flick the switch when the program started. It was a looong wait indeed. I'm sure my System-80/TRS-80 M1 tape loadings were faster!

Tez
 
The 64/1541 slowed the drive communication down even more, to something like 3200 baud, thus shipping a drive that was barely faster than a cassette tape.
Well, 3000 baud is approximately the maximum you can obtain from a tape turbo, the built in one operates at 600 baud, effective 300 baud since everything is recorded twice. On the other hand, during the lifetime of the C64 there were both software and hardware fastloaders for the floppy drive which speeds it up a great lot, beyond what a bitbanging CIA would have succeeded on its own. The C128 used with a 1571 also has a burst mode.

The only alternative to slowing down loads would have been to delay the VIC-20 launch by .. what, two months? Four months? Another half year? Certainly Commodore could've fit 6526 into the 1541 and somehow have made it VIC-20 compatible at a lower speed, as I believe the 1541 was not released until the C64 was - before that we had the 1540.
 
The first thing that comes to mind is the NeXT Cube MO drive.
Don't forget the "Twiggy" drives in the first-gen Lisa! Apple was even going to put one in the 128K Mac until they adopted the Sony 3½" drive -- and even then the engineers had to fight against Steve Jobs to get it approved; Jobs had wanted Apple to develop its own proprietary 3½" drive instead.
 
Quite a few C64 games had speedup routines in the booter to get more speed from the 1541 drives, and just about everyone had speed up carts for that task. Still the 1541 could store plenty more then a tape could, even more if you used both sides of the disk.

Some games like the AD&D series have a bunch of floppies and use both front and back to store data, any clue how many tapes they would have needed for that (plus the save game tapes)?
 
Au contraire! I respectfully disagree. Of all the near-vintage tablets I own, the Newton 120 (ROM version 2.0) is by far the best. It outshines all of it's contemporaries. It ain't really fair to compare it to today's recognizers, but then again, from what I've seen, modern recog programs ain't much better.

I've heard that the first ROM was pretty bad tho, is that what you have?

--T

I got a 130 that's pretty beat up. I want a 2100 some day.....
 
On the other hand, during the lifetime of the C64 there were both software and hardware fastloaders
[...]
The only alternative to slowing down loads would have been to delay the VIC-20 launch
Quite a few C64 games had speedup routines in the booter to get more speed from the 1541 drives

The point wasn't to start a "C=64 5uxxor5" argument, just to point out a pretty clear design flaw in the product. Or really, a cascading set of design flaws -- from the original logic bug in the VIA, to the shortsighted and late decision to drop HP-IB, to the poor QA that didn't discover the bug until too late, to the just plain bizarre decision to prioritize VIC-20 compatibility (!?!) over a huge performance bug in the C64.

For reference, note that while the C64 was using an extra 6502 CPU, another VIA on the drive, a 16k mask ROM and 8K of DRAM (I think those sizes are right) to get all of 3200bps off the disk while requiring 100% attention from the main CPU, the Apple Disk II could stream data straight off the track at full rotation speed, which the back of my envelope tells me is 35 times faster (based on the original 110k format) than the 1541.

And the Disk II shipped four years (!) earlier. And the Disk II had a part manifest that consisted of the OEM drive, plus (no joke) a box and a cable.

Given that comparison, you just can't make a sane argument that the 1541 wasn't a total disaster. It's true that other folks outside of Commodore found hacks that made the Commodore product suck less. But the hardware that Commodore actually shipped was pretty undeniably a mess.
 
Commodore floppy drives always struck me as way more complex than they should have been. Despite all that circuitry on the drive, you get slow speed and cryptic commands. Atari had a nice friendly menu-driven DOS in 1979 and Apple DOS was fairly straightforward, but Commodore always made you deal with nonsense like LOAD "$",8,1:LIST unless you went with aftermarket products. Luckily I have an Enhancer 2000 drive and a Final Cartridge III for my own C64/C128, which makes it a bit faster and more friendly to use. But even then, there is still no way to boot directly from a disk, unlike most other home computers.
 
Last edited:
Commodore floppy drives always struck me as way more complex than they should have been. Despite all that circuitry on the drive, you slow speed and cryptic commands. Atari had a nice friendly menu-driven DOS in 1979 and Apple DOS was fairly straightforward, but Commodore always made you deal with nonsense like LOAD "$",8,1:LIST unless you went with aftermarket products. Luckily I have an Enhancer 2000 drive and a Final Cartridge III for my own C64/C128, which makes it a bit faster and more friendly to use. But even then, there is still no way to boot directly from a disk, unlike most other home computers.
----------
Yes, Commodore drives were more complex than some others, largely due to their decision to use the IEEE bus (which got them into a lot of laboratories and industrial apps) and the IEC bus which was a sort of precursor of today's USB; on the other hand I can't think of any other mass market drive that squeezed 1MB onto a DD disk like the 8250 did, or even the 500KB on the 8050.

And you did not *always* have to type "LOAD "$" etc.; BASIC versions 1 & 2 did indeed have "generic" commands so that LOADing from tape or disk, or saving to tape/disk/printer etc. all used the same commands but with different unit numbers, as the IEEE bus did, but the 1541 disk drive came with a utility 'wedge' that allowed simple disk commands, as did all the later versions of BASIC (which also allowed 'booting" from a disk by pressing a key).

Certainly not "design flaws" by any stretch.
 
----------
Yes, Commodore drives were more complex than some others, largely due to their decision to use the IEEE bus (which got them into a lot of laboratories and industrial apps) and the IEC bus which was a sort of precursor of today's USB; on the other hand I can't think of any other mass market drive that squeezed 1MB onto a DD disk like the 8250 did, or even the 500KB on the 8050.

The Durango F85 ( 1978 ), for certain (980K) did and I think there were others, such as Multitech. Micropolis was endorsing GCR encoding on their 5.25" 100 tpi floppies sometime around 1977. I think they even put out their own system demonstrating it around then. The general idea was to compete against DSHD 8" drives.
 
The Durango F85 ( 1978 ), for certain (980K) did and I think there were others, such as Multitech. Micropolis was endorsing GCR encoding on their 5.25" 100 tpi floppies sometime around 1977. I think they even put out their own system demonstrating it around then. The general idea was to compete against DSHD 8" drives.
-------------
Ah yes, you and I have had this discussion before, Chuck; that's why I said "mass market." I don't think the Durangos were ever a big deal in the market place, and of course the Commodore drives *did* use those bare 100TPI Micropolis mechs. But CP/M, IBM, Apple and Tandy drives of that time had substantially less capacity than CBM's 500/1000KB units.
 
Its no different than the Apple key. I actually use the Windows one quite a bit, its useful if you bother to learn what it does.

I get my medical care from the Veteran's Administration, so I have an electronic medical record. Best thing to hit medicine in a long time. Anyway, one day I notice my doctor is moving one of his hands off of the keyboard to use the mouse like every five seconds so I tell him that the next time I come I will bring a list of Windows keyboard commands for him to learn. By the visit after that he was entering data at lightspeed, never using the mouse, or at least not much. I still like to use the keyboard to accomplish what the mouse can do. Takes me back to my version 1.02 days.

I wonder if the commands are in the help section of XP/Vista that doesn't pass for a manual. Anybody?

I really like the fact that "scroll lock" works now, too.

Sean
 
Ah yes, you and I have had this discussion before, Chuck; that's why I said "mass market." I don't think the Durangos were ever a big deal in the market place, and of course the Commodore drives *did* use those bare 100TPI Micropolis mechs. But CP/M, IBM, Apple and Tandy drives of that time had substantially less capacity than CBM's 500/1000KB units.

"Mass market" back in 1980 was a comparative term. I can claim to have gotten a bit tipsy at the celebration of having shipped of S/N 5000--and production was far from over then.

What this does point up, though, is the extremely small chance of the systems from some of the smaller companies having survived. There are lots of marques I have never seen discussed here--the only conclusion that I can form is that very few ever survived; particularly those systems whose clientèle was mostly business and not personal.

Not nearly as complicated, there were lots of systems using 96 tpi 5.25" drives, comfortably storing 800K on a floppy. Given the complexity of the 1541 to store only 25% more, the added electronics seems to be hardly worth it.

Indeed, when Durango brought out their 186/286 box, they went to conventional MFM on 96 tpi drives. The FDC board in the F85 was very complicated and made use of the WD1781, something that WDC had ceased to manufacture by 1981.

If you really want an example of lots of storage on a 5.25" diskette at around the time of the C64, take a look at the Kaypro Robie, circa 1984. (Kaypro qualifies as a "mass market" machine, doesn't it?)
 
Back
Top