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Gmt plant final cleanout commadore stuff help!

Hi, gang. Jason Scott. Internet Archive, general troublemaker.

I've contacted the contractor and arranged to show up, hell or high water on Monday morning, and haul everything possible away, probably to a storage unit down the road, before arranging for it to go elsewhere and be dealt with.

I deal in action and deadlines, not hopes and dreams.

I'm not going to ebay the stuff, I'm going to ensure it goes to museums and archives, and gets in front of people who can pull away data.

If anyone wants to help, hit me at jason@textfiles.com.
 
yes! keep those documents! a lot of technical info about the mos chips is missing, and if it's in there some of the chips would be easier to duplicate with modern fpga to keep these Commodores alive!
 
The documents there were unfortunately not design as far as we could see.
We saw process change docs and process analysis, wafer production, and financials.
The tapes however, now that I study the pics do say C.S.G - which I presume is Commodore Semiconductor Group.
Those are promising.
 
Wow. Those wafers may have some jewels in them. Do you have access to good microscopes to take pictures of them?

I am currently decapping an old VIC 6560 (the ones used in Commodore Vic-20 NTSC) and will take pictures of that within a few days. The main point is that we are trying to reverse engineer the 6561 (and 6560) in order to try to learn more from them. I know, it only has 160 pixels (or up to around 200+) horizontal pixels, but its important to understand all aspects of it in order to reverse engineer the IC's. Look at www.visual6502.org if you want to see what can be done.

If those wafers contain 64DX ic's, or anything else of historical value, it would be extremely important to get them photographed.

If you can't find anyone to do it, I have access to a few very good electron microscopes that will accommodate full wafers.

Here is our optical microscope:
IMG_6097.jpg
That is good for features larger than around 2um.. And you can see me reading your post (e.g. the picture) on the PC beside.

Here is out electron microscope:
IMG_6098.jpg
I can get features down to around 50nm with that one.
 
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Forgive me for a moment while I digress a bit. 50nm, iinm, is right around .000002 inches, correct? So why do people say the magnetic elements on a floppy disk aren't discernible, as they're too small. I calculate that each bit on a 360k floppy disk occupies an area of about .000015 inches. I don't know how much those bits like being sprayed with electrons. But it seems to me such a uScope is sufficient to "see" something.
 
I've made a long-time project studying the source code for the ROMs for the various C= machines, even writing a series of articles long ago for the C=Hacking magazine on the topic. If you find that kind of stuff, let me know.
 
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Wafers:

I got to handle some of the wafers, as did Bil.
All the ones were handled were the same die.
We remarked on a large rectangular section in the middle of the dies.
There might have been other die types buried in the whole mess, I don't know.

... and I was permitted to remove a few and having gotten a close look
I do know whats on the the wafers I have- Commodore 8563 Rev 9.
You can tell 'cause it says so in the die...
...and because of the remarkably low yield indicated by the bad die marks across the wafer
(famously low 8563 yield ha ha)

So unfortunately, at least what I have and what I saw, are not rare IC dies from the
experimental items at the end of C=.
 
Update for everyone .... me and Jason and Doug (dmemphis) all huddled; turns out Jason's post about what the contractor told him is deprecated information. The latest is that the contractor will likely sell whatever he can, but he promised VCFed (via Doug, who I authorized to act on our behalf) that we'll get a chance to do any serious data imaging, etc. before the mag tapes and any other media/documentation are forever scattered to collectors. I assured Doug that VCFed (and the "Jason Army") will help provide any resources needed when the time comes (transportation, storage, funds, technical expertise, etc.)

Sooooooo, all any of us can do now is wait. Doug remains in contact with the contractor, who has the next move.
 
Nice to hear that someone is handling everything with precaution and consideration. Nowadays, test wafers tend to contain more than one IC, so I would have looked closely on each of them to see if theres something unusual. Even partially processed wafers or scraps can yield lots of information from how things were handled at MOS/CSG. We really don't know much about how things were done there, except from the few interviews that floats around.

PS: electron microscopes use high energy electrons and will quickly change magnetic media/domains. I have heard that STM (scanning tunneling microscopy) can give magnetic information, but that may be a very tedious and long task (they are quite slow).
 
The tapes and disks are probably not more than 30 years old. Child's play using traditional data recovery, even with environmental issues like fungus infestation.

No need to go the STM route on something this new. Just treat the media with due consideration for its history.
 
Kakemoms said:
PS: electron microscopes use high energy electrons and will quickly change magnetic media/domains. I have heard that STM (scanning tunneling microscopy) can give magnetic information, but that may be a very tedious and long task (they are quite slow).
Click to expand...

Ok. Ultimately my point was though that the individual coerced areas of a floppy disk isn't too small to be see. I was told smaller then the wavelengths of light. I doubt it.
 
WOW to this thread. I live nearish to the site, could have insinuated myself into the recovery process early on had I logged in before.

One question: does this guy, who says he doesn't know much about this stuff, really think he tossed a half dozen C65s? How would he even have been able to ID what they were?
 
mozartpc27 said:
WOW to this thread. I live nearish to the site, could have insinuated myself into the recovery process early on had I logged in before.

One question: does this guy, who says he doesn't know much about this stuff, really think he tossed a half dozen C65s? How would he even have been able to ID what they were?
Click to expand...

I don't know the answer, but rest assured, we're on top of it. ("We" = the non-profit organization that owns this forum.)
 
2icebitn said:
Ok. Ultimately my point was though that the individual coerced areas of a floppy disk isn't too small to be see. I was told smaller then the wavelengths of light. I doubt it.
Click to expand...

On a floppy disk, even an ED one, not even close. You can see things clearly with some magnetic developer and even a moderately powerful optical microscope, which on an ED floppy a feature is only about.02 thousandths. On 1/2" 9-track tape recorded at 800 NRZI, you can make them out them with a watchmaker's loupe.
 
EvanK said:
I don't know the answer, but rest assured, we're on top of it. ("We" = the non-profit organization that owns this forum.)
Click to expand...

That is great...It certainly makes me feel better. He most likely tossed some C64Cs is what I like to think because the other option is just too disturbing given their rarity and recent value.
 
EvanK said:
I don't know the answer, but rest assured, we're on top of it. ("We" = the non-profit organization that owns this forum.)
Click to expand...

Oh sure, I didn't mean to suggest I'd be there to take stuff. Just would be fun to be involved in recovery and cataloguing and frankly just seeing this "warehouse find" - one dreams of such things!

I have attended the VCF East the last several years and in fact contributed to the mega Commodore exhibit last time (a 1551 drive).
 
norm8332 said:
That is great...It certainly makes me feel better. He most likely tossed some C64Cs is what I like to think because the other option is just too disturbing given their rarity and recent value.
Click to expand...

If I threw out something worth $100K+, I'd be at the dump digging through the trash to find it...
 
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