Corey986
Administrator
Funny I have a lot of 1981 computer mags and they all seem to have ads for Apple II+ clones and stuff.... I guess it depends on what we read back then....
Cheers,
Corey
Cheers,
Corey
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hey everybody...im new with a few questions
- Thread starter retrogametruck
- Start date
billdeg
Technician
Which ones, Byte?
Not what I said...
Not what I said...
No, I didn't say that. I meant you could buy a C64 at TRU (and many other retail outlets for that matter) because it was a low cost, mass-produced computer. I'm not inclined to say anything negative about the C64/128 platform -- it was a transformative influence and major contributor to the microcomputing revolution of the 80's and many a gifted coder got their start on it precisely because it was cheap and accessible.
Not what I said...
Did you just relegate the Commodore computers to toys? Little play things and not a real computer? Oh man, good thing I'm an Apple II fan...
No, I didn't say that. I meant you could buy a C64 at TRU (and many other retail outlets for that matter) because it was a low cost, mass-produced computer. I'm not inclined to say anything negative about the C64/128 platform -- it was a transformative influence and major contributor to the microcomputing revolution of the 80's and many a gifted coder got their start on it precisely because it was cheap and accessible.
The simple definition of "mass market" is "the market for goods that are produced in large quantities". The "market" for computers is not the entire public. When Apple setup the Apple II assembly lines, it was to mass produce a product for a rapidly emerging market.
Business success is based on profits not sales. And having a profitable product with sustained sales (and profit) for 16 years, IMHO, is a great success. I encourage you to read up on Apple's mid-'80s history. The Apple II was keeping the company afloat while millions were being spent on R&D. Profits, not sales.
I'm not arguing over what computer is best (haven't done that since middle school) but to state the Apple II wasn't a sales leader in the home consumer market is just wrong.
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For me, it was Creative Computing and MICRO.
david__schmidt
Veteran Member
I'm with ya. I'm just amused at how the thread got completely hijacked. Not that there was any hope for it in the first place, but still. ;-)
vwestlife
Veteran Member
Apple was profitable because of all their lucrative sales and service contracts with schools.
Fun read! Off topic to the thread (what apple to buy) but pertinent to the discussion, what's a Full stroke keyboard? (The Bally/Astrovision) "keyboard" sure looks like it would be one but the article says it isn't? Toshiba shows a "phototype" 2" LCD tv. I was looking up that term but I don't think I'm finding the right definition of phototype either.
Is any of your course online for reading? Is there an official computer history course at a college?
Back on topic, I thought what stirred up this debate was the comment that the Apple IIc* was what one poster said was the first home marketed Apple vs the IIe which is what I was suggesting. I was simply saying the IIe is common, enhanced, color, and one of the cheaper display units. I did realize the OP also said it was more of a show piece as well and not necessarily going to be used. I don't know the validity of a IIe not being a home computer, to me it seems like it was more-so than the IIc just with the warranty perspective. IIc, you open it up and void your warranty. IIe you're welcome to pop the top and there was some bolting system for school units if they wanted to discourage the curious. That and the IIe outlived the Iic. Mostly though I think it's the more common Apple look that one would remember, and since it sold so well in comparison to other Apple computers I think the price is still the lowest for an intro collector.
Also to the OP (I may have stated this before) if you're trying to figure out a price start searching ebay for completed Apple II auctions. You'll get a feel for some of the price range they sold for and red items means they didn't sell. That's the trick.. there are lots of overpriced auctions out there that folks think represent the market but they don't. They never sell and just get reposted and reposted. At least you can see someone did buy a system for X price regardless of whether it was on the high side or not you can get your barrings on what to start looking for locally.
vwestlife
Veteran Member
Basically a normal keyboard like you find on an average PC, as opposed to a flat membrane keyboard (like microwave oven buttons), a "chiclet" keyboard (like a MacBook), or a "dead flesh" keyboard (like a calculator with rubber keys).
The IIe was the mainstay of schools. They preferred it because the system unit served as its own monitor stand (while the IIc required a separate monitor stand) and could easily be chained down to the table to prevent theft. The IIc was too small and easy for someone to sneak into their backpack and walk away with.
Also if a IIe's external disk drive failed it could be easily swapped out, while the IIc's drive was built-in, so a failure required sending in the whole computer for service. The internal components of the IIe (motherboard, cards, power supply) could also be easily swapped out if the school had spare parts on-hand.
krebizfan
Veteran Member
Side mounted floppies are a bad idea in a school setting. Pack those computers in tightly and the side mounted drives become unreachable or leave room to get to the drive and reduce the number of computers in the lab by half.
magnusfalkirk
Experienced Member
Another interesting thing about the article is that if you go just by his graphs there were no more Apple II's sold after 1987. We know that's not true since the Apple IIe was manufactured until 1993. The Apple II kept Apple alive as a company while the Mac was getting it's start. After Apple came out with the Mac they all but ignored the II and yet it still continued to sell well. In fact Appleworks was the best selling software for the Apple II without a much, if any, advertising from Apple.
The Apple //e was the mainstay of schools because it was cheaper than the IIGS, and relatively few 16bit educational titles were released compared to the tens of thousands of existing 8bit programs. Who needs 16bit Stickybear and Oregon Trail when 8bit versions work fine? There was no incentive to upgrade, and when districts did buy IIGS machines, they were more often used as a fast IIe. The IIe also had slots - so schools could add cards if their lab required them for network sharing of files, printers and for sound cards, adaptive firmware cards, science experiments, etc.
The //c and IIGS had openings for anti-theft brackets. The IIe never did. Schools that chained their computers down usually used epoxy glued metal brackets and it didn't matter what brand or model the computer was. Having *personally* processed several hundred (if not thousands of) Apple II computers for scrap and redistribution over the years, it's been rare to come across any school computer with a lock mechanism on it. The most common form of 'protection' schools used was asset tags, marking and engraving. Lots and lots of engraving.
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...and because many hundreds of thousands of home computer buyers thought it was a nifty machine to have.
World being a key word there. Commodore and Atari machines, particularly the post 8bit ones were much more popular in Europe then in the USA. Growing up, just about everyone I knew owned an Apple II series machine. Very few owned a C64 and nobody really owned an Amiga or Atari ST (a few had a IIgs). I didn't even know the VIC20 existed until many years later.
Income is a factor too. Many around here could afford an Apple II setup to have the same machine their child's school used. They also later went on to purchase a Macintosh or PC compatible once the 8bit machines were deemed obsolete. This is in contrast to Europe where many purchased the lower cost Amiga and Atari ST machines to replace their C64 or as their first computer.
vwestlife
Veteran Member
I only had an Apple II at home because my dad was a college professor and was able to take one of the school's machines home for my sister and I to use. The computer he actually bought for his own home use was an oddball NEC PC-8001A.
Out of my three friends with computers in the '80s, the one from the richest family had an Apple IIc in his bedroom. The other two, of more modest means, used their parents' computers -- an AT&T PC 6300 and a TI-99/4A, respectively.
Out of my three friends with computers in the '80s, the one from the richest family had an Apple IIc in his bedroom. The other two, of more modest means, used their parents' computers -- an AT&T PC 6300 and a TI-99/4A, respectively.
TanruNomad
Veteran Member
I had a very similar situation growing up in the late 80s/early 90s. I knew not a single person who owned a Commodore Vic20/64/Amiga or Atari computer. All were PC, a few Macs, and some Apple IIs. I never even knew what a c64 was until much, much later. It's sad that these superior computers were only seen as toys and never really marketed as a business machine. I supposed the c64 didn't have the same networking and expandability options so it couldn't really keep up with an IBM PC or Apple II in the office. Also, Apple IIs and PCs could be opened up in seconds making them a technicians dream.
vwestlife
Veteran Member
My dad's best friend's kids had a Commodore 16! Needless to say they quickly ignored it and went back to playing their Intellivison, until he finally bought them a CompuAdd PC clone in 1990 or so.
Hm.. when I was a young but coherent kid I lived in a very small town (5000?) in Kansas during the early 80s when I first started seeing computer. They were all IBM compatible that I ever saw. You would think I would have remembered more systems back then but I didn't watch very much TV (like an hour a day at most). I don't remember when I first heard of Apple computers. Actually it was probably when I bought Wizardy I for a great price then found out I couldn't play it and it turned out to be for Apple I think. We didn't really have any big stores though. We may have had a Radioshack so Tandy would have perhaps been in that small town. I don't remember the details of the computers at their office other than being x86 desktops and later running Windows 3.x. At that time I only Atari for the 2600, we ended up buying a Zenith (IBM compatible), another friend had some other x86 monochrome IBM clone, then eventually another friends family bought a 286 (possibly Tandy) which was pretty bad ass. Either way, I had no first person insight into the market but it certainly seemed like an IBM world to me.
vwestlife
Veteran Member
Base list prices as of November 1982, according to Datapro Research Corp.'s "All About Personal Computers":
Note that the Franklin came with 64K RAM while the Apple only came with 16K, so that's why the Franklin cost more.
Code:
Timex-Sinclair 1000 $99.95
Commodore VIC-20 $199.95
Atari 400 $299
TRS-80 Color Computer $399
TI-99/4A $450
Commodore 64 $595
PMC-80/81 $595
TRS-80 Model III $699
Toshiba T100 $795
Atari 800 $899
Cromemco C-10 $995
NEC PC-8001A $1205
IBM Personal Computer $1265
Commodore PET 4032 $1295
Apple II Plus $1330
Commodore CBM 8032 $1495
Franklin Ace 1000 $1595Note that the Franklin came with 64K RAM while the Apple only came with 16K, so that's why the Franklin cost more.