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Packard Bell 386 Hard Drive Issue

F

FParker

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2023
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29
Hello again,

After the (much appreciated) help I received in my last thread with this unit, I am now tackling my next issue: what appears to be a dead HDD.

This unit came from the factory with a 5.25" and 3.5" FDD, as well as a 40 MB HDD from Western Digital. I get no sound from this drive except for the occasional grinding noise, and I cannot switch from A:\ or B:\ to C:\ (which would make sense if it is not spinning).

I reckon that, short of a miracle, this drive needs to be replaced. What should I replace it with? This was originally a Windows 3.1 machine, if any additional context is needed.

Attached is the drive and model number.

Thank you very much,
Forrest

P.S: off topic, but quite the interesting daughterboard setup, for the processor no less. I've never seen that before.20230207_014752.jpg20230207_015715.jpg

Edit: I should add that, upon initally opening the computer, I found the HDD LED to be unplugged. Not seeing any indication of which way I should plug it in, I chose *a way* and the computer turned on, asking to go into system configuration because of a long since dead CMOS battery (that I can't find).

The LED never even blinked, so I decided to turn it around tonight, and that’s when I got HDD grinding (the LED turned on) and a blue screen with no booting. What does that mean?
 
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Does the BIOS use automatic HDD detection or does it only support preset configurations? If the latter and since the CMOS battery is dead, you will need to manually set the configuration that matches the specs of your HDD in the BIOS before booting (and even if it uses automatic HDD detection, you may need to 're-detect' the drive with every boot).

Of course, the possibility that the drive is dead shouldn't be ruled out, but if you can hear the drive spin up + motion of the actuator arm, that usually indicates the drive has at least some life left.
 
These early stepper WDC drives are quite unreliable from what I've heard. Assuming no software configuration issues are sorted, you could try adding some oil to the exposed stepper motor. They can get seized over time.
 
Well, when I go into the setup configuration, the HDD field is already filled with specs regarding the drive. I will make note of them and see if they match the drive's actual traits. I don't know if that would be considered auto detect or not. I assume if the info doesn't line up, that means that it has to be set manually.

I'll pull the case open again tonight and put a couple of drops of oil on the motor and see what happens. Perhaps, after sitting for 20+ years in a box, the motor is simply seized.

I'll also take another look for the CMOS battery. I have a feeling that I'm looking for something that doesn't look like a circle cell in a socket.

I should also add that, despite my intense fascination with these machines, my actual knowledge on how they work is somewhat limited, so forgive me if I seem like a luddite. I don't really know where to start in that regard. Maybe I should start with learning the ins and outs of the concept of "BIOS".
 
Give'er a good old wrist twist to see if that unsticks the spindle, otherwise the heads are stuck to the platters.
 
NeXT said:
Give'er a good old wrist twist to see if that unsticks the spindle, otherwise the heads are stuck to the platters.
Click to expand...
Haha that's exactly what I do to the JVC drive in my Zenith, but the heads seem to stick again at random times, so I usually end up dismantling it and giving the platter a physical twist! I know there is a lot of discussion on dust and HDDs, but my thinking is that if it is fried anyway then it can't harm it any further!
 
Upon entering the setup config, I found that there was no auto detection of the HDD, but rather several "types". These types contained some of the traits of this HDD (cylinders, head number, etc), but nothing matched exactly. Either way, it's still not reading, so either the stepper motor is seized or just junk, so that's my next mode of attack.

20230207_235707.jpg20230207_235703.jpg20230207_235658.jpg

Edit: I also don't know how to manually enter the drive specs into the setup program. Hitting anything other than the arrow keys does nothing. I'm saying this in one last Hail Mary attempt to find a solution to this before I have to work on it physically/buy a new drive.

On that note, does anyone have any good recommendations for a HDD?
 
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FParker said:
Upon entering the setup config, I found that there was no auto detection of the HDD, but rather several "types". These types contained some of the traits of this HDD (cylinders, head number, etc), but nothing matched exactly. Either way, it's still not reading, so either the stepper motor is seized or just junk, so that's my next mode of attack.

View attachment 1252751View attachment 1252752View attachment 1252753

Edit: I also don't know how to manually enter the drive specs into the setup program. Hitting anything other than the arrow keys does nothing. I'm saying this in one last Hail Mary attempt to find a solution to this before I have to work on it physically/buy a new drive.

On that note, does anyone have any good recommendations for a HDD?
Click to expand...
Since the BIOS doesn't support HDD auto detection, it likely only supports the specific drive types it has listed. If you can't get the old drive working, the options are to either find a working replacement drive that fits one of the BIOS presets (essentially a crapshoot) or use drive overlay software. If you go the drive overlay software route that'll make finding a replacement much easier since you can use a wide array of older drives, or one of those IDE-CompactFlash adapters that are popular these days (those can also use Microdrives, which I personally prefer since I'm one of those 'hard drive or no drive' folks).
 
Wonderful, so I do have some pretty easily sourced alternatives to this HDD. As far as that Drive Overlay Software is concerned, how would one go about installing that on the new drive? I'm assuming that the software would be coming from and set up on a modern computer, at which point the drive would be placed in the computer.

At any rate, I have a couple of updates: I have pulled the old drive AND found the CMOS battery (I am extremely happy that it was not soldered to the board).

It's a Dallas DS1287 integrated clock and battery, and it was nestled under the expansion card. I was able to pull it with relative ease. I'm assuming that I can get a new one, as I'm not particularly keen on trying to pull it apart and replace the battery. I am a little ham-fisted when it comes to such things.

Secondly, regarding the drive, the stepper motor has a cover over the exposed end, so I can't rotate it or oil it. Also, there is a two prong plug on the underside of the drive, and I just so happened to find a couple of unused two prong grounding wires in the computer. Perhaps the drive isn't functioning because it's not properly grounded? I don't know, I'm just throwing whatever I can at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Thank you all so much,
Forrest
20230208_231924.jpg20230208_231158.jpg20230208_232843.jpg

Edit: I (think) I have found a suitable and sustainable replacement for this Dallas chip (pictured in the screenshot below). They say it's a drop in replacement that does everything the original chip does, but with a lithium button cell socket. It sure beats trying to source an ever dwindling and aging number of Dallas CMOS clocks.

Screenshot_20230208_234734_Chrome.jpg
 
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You will have to write an Ontrack floppy yourself, you can either do this with an older computer that has a built in floppy drive or a modern computer using a USB floppy drive (though I personally love to use my P4 desktop running XP). Grab a copy of Ontrack 9.5.7 from Phil's Computer Lab (link) and use something like WinImage to write the .img file directly to a floppy disk (go up to the 'Disk' menu and then click 'Write disk' or 'Format and write disk' if it isn't already empty.) That way, you should have a bootable floppy and the actual setup with the new drive can be done on the 386 itself.

Far as the old drive is concerned... may get some flak for suggesting these, but since the drive is essentially a paperweight as is you really have nothing to lose... you could start by lightly whacking the side of the drive with a screwdriver to see if that gets it going again. If you want to try taking it apart, usually you just need the appropriate torx bit. That way you can free up the actuator arm (assuming it's a part of the problem) and you may also want to carefully remove the drive magnet and put it back in its original position. Believe it or not, these methods have been successful for me with various old hard drives (I can't speak for anyone else though...)
 
FParker said:
Edit: I (think) I have found a suitable and sustainable replacement for this Dallas chip (pictured in the screenshot below). They say it's a drop in replacement that does everything the original chip does, but with a lithium button cell socket. It sure beats trying to source an ever dwindling and aging number of Dallas CMOS clocks.
Click to expand...
No guarantee of suitability.

Described as "GW-12887-1 Maintainable Replacement for DS12887 RTC Module".

You have a DS1287, not a DS12887.

In regard to the DS1287, from [here] is:
"The GW-12887-1 is also compatible with many systems that use the older DS1287. Some systems require a DS1287 and won't work with newer RTC modules. We cannot guarantee compatibility with every single system out there, but we've tried the GW-12887-1 in a number of systems, ranging from 386 motherboards to VAXstation 3100 m76 machines with good results. A few industrial boards insisted on a DS1287, and for that we've designed a GW-1287-1 replacement, though they are currently in very limited supply."

Some additional information at [here].
 
I finally found some free time to open up the hard drive (lid and all). The platter spins freely, even though it doesn't spool up on startup (could be because of the bad CMOS battery, I don't know).

The stepper motor feels quite stiff and sticky when the driveshaft is rotated. Admittedly, I started to pull it off of the drive before I realized that there are small nuts that anchor the screws and, by extension, the stepper motor, to the HDD chassis. I heard some rattling inside, so I made sure to not tilt the drive toward the disk side to keep the nuts away from a surface that cannot afford be marred. Even still, when I opened the drive lid, I only found one nut. I don't know where the other one could have gone...

Perhaps it's attached to the drive magnet, wherever that may be located.

Assuming I haven't damaged the disks within, based on the description of the stepper motor, does it need oil? I don't know what these things are supposed to feel like when rotating the driveshaft.
Further still, if it does need oil, what kind? Sewing machine oil?

Update: I have found the fourth nut. It must have come out when I opened the case and didn't see it. It was sitting right on the mat I have on the table.

The actuator arm moves freely and smoothly, with no binding. I do, however, notice that as I rotate the platter, it spins more freely the closer the tips of the arms are to the center. There is a squeaking noise when they're closer to the edge and the platter is turned.
 
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Further update: the top disk looks like it started to incur damage. The surface is marked up considerably (at least to me). I only spun the platter a few times. The damage is more widespread on the disk than what my turning of it did. However, it does look like the plastic block on the end of the arm is responsible.

20230212_162938.jpg
 
Welcome to troubleshooting old PC's. This is just my opinion but I think opening up the hard disk is going to cause nothing but more trouble down the line. But maybe you'll get lucky.

Anyway, it is getting harder to find the old drives that work with the 386 generations. And if you buy one from someone there is no guarantee it's won't also be bad, or will go bad. That's what hard drives do - they go bad.

Unless you are trying to stay period correct I would suggest using one of the more modern solutions, like a Compact Flash, SD, or MicroDrive. You will probably still need to use the drive overlay software but at least you'll have a more reliable "hard drive" solution.

Seaken
 
seaken said:
Welcome to troubleshooting old PC's. This is just my opinion but I think opening up the hard disk is going to cause nothing but more trouble down the line. But maybe you'll get lucky.

Anyway, it is getting harder to find the old drives that work with the 386 generations. And if you buy one from someone there is no guarantee it's won't also be bad, or will go bad. That's what hard drives do - they go bad.

Unless you are trying to stay period correct I would suggest using one of the more modern solutions, like a Compact Flash, SD, or MicroDrive. You will probably still need to use the drive overlay software but at least you'll have a more reliable "hard drive" solution.

Seaken
Click to expand...
I am 99.99% certain that I going to do that. This HDD seems like a nice piece of old tech to put on my shelf, and that’s about it. I'll probably go microdrive for the feel. I do feel the sun is rising on a solution other than this old drive.
 
To me, it seems to be head stiction. Have you tried to hook it up to a different power supply and see if it spins up? I opened up several old drives and most of them either suffered from head stiction or rubber bumpers going to "goo". There's virtually nothing I could do to fix the stiction but at least I was able to get the hard drive to run for a certain period of time.
 
Didn't he state the platters moved with no problem. Then it's not stiction. But it's ready for s head crash if it does get spun up.
 
tradde said:
Didn't he state the platters moved with no problem. Then it's not stiction. But it's ready for s head crash if it does get spun up.
Click to expand...
If you look at the marks on the platter, those were left by the read/write head. If you see marks like that, usually it means there's a stiction. He may have "unceased" it for the first time and it can spin freely but that does not necessarily mean it won't get stuck again.
 
That drive is toast...Head crash to point it scored the platters. Don't get too upset, par for the course. Easy ways (and cheap) to adapt CF or SD to replace the drive.
 
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