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What is 'proper' restoration

tradde

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And thats why hes a Douche.......

If you have criticism and are UNWILLING to teach something.. That immediately makes you part of the problem.

Considering he has a whole line of videos called "PERFECT RESTORATION" of a PET 2001 I think you can surmise hes full of himself. I know the type. They are constant 1-uppers. "You found a 5 dollar bill on the road HAH! I found a 20!" Every method you show is wrong but thiers. They are unwilling to admit error or learn better ways.

Ive been guilty of a few of those things in the past unfortunately.. I learned to correct that bad habbit.. Reason being.. They are very very off putting.

Edit: Christ.. hes one of those guys who wont talk in any of his videos and just throws up text?! Damn thats so annoying. So he has very low self esteem and is afraid to show himself or be heard but he is ok tearing other people down...

Like I said "cowardly chair pirate".
Agree. It's fine to criticize but explain why. It may turn out that person may even learn something when the other person explains why they did something a certain way.
But not likely with this type. They are the "I know everything" and "you know nothing". "Learn from me". Nope. And the text only videos really annoy me. There will always be some that don't agree with someone. Always. If you're making the stuff you work on work again, that is good enough for me. You are not trying to make it perfect (or like just pulled out of the box). It's all in what you want to get from this hobby. Ignore this dude.
 

falter

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Agree. It's fine to criticize but explain why. It may turn out that person may even learn something when the other person explains why they did something a certain way.
But not likely with this type. They are the "I know everything" and "you know nothing". "Learn from me". Nope. And the text only videos really annoy me. There will always be some that don't agree with someone. Always. If you're making the stuff you work on work again, that is good enough for me. You are not trying to make it perfect (or like just pulled out of the box). It's all in what you want to get from this hobby. Ignore this dude.
I think his videos are text only because his primary language isn't English. One video I stumbled on did have him speaking in a strong, I think European, accent.

Anyway.. guys like him have always rattled me a bit. You run into them everywhere.. vintage computers, IT, restaurants, carpentry etc. They make you feel like a moron. I can handle a critique.. I just want to know where I'm going wrong so I can improve. These kinds of discussions go on in every hobby that involves some kind of restoration. I certainly don't want to hurt my machines, as I understand I am merely a caretaker til they go to the next set of hands.

Unless they invent bionic body replacements.

If they do that, I will dwell in a warehouse surrounded by these things in a happy state of madness forever.
 

Eudimorphodon

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Anyway.. guys like him have always rattled me a bit. You run into them everywhere.. vintage computers, IT, restaurants, carpentry etc. They make you feel like a moron. I can handle a critique.. I just want to know where I'm going wrong so I can improve. These kinds of discussions go on in every hobby that involves some kind of restoration. I certainly don't want to hurt my machines, as I understand I am merely a caretaker til they go to the next set of hands.

Haters gonna hate, that's how the Internet works, alas. I read the guy's comment and frankly I don't even get what his beef is; you at no point claimed this was documentation of a "complete restoration" and it's not like you sawsall'ed it open like the "What's Inside?" guy and just spread its guts out to gawk at. Doing a basic exploratory once-over and testing is what normal humans do when they receive something in unknown working condition, and while this dingus may be "old" and "rare" it's not like you started chiseling the Antikythera mechanism for crying out loud.

Obviously some basic caution is a good idea, like (if possible) isolating and testing the power supply before moving on to the main logic board, etc, but this is solid state TTL electronics, which frankly can be pretty darn robust if you don't zap them hard enough to let the smoke out. (And so what if you did, honestly? Yes, it'd suck, but a few hundred dollars at Unicorn Electronics and bridging a few zapped traces would be the price for that lesson... although I guess blowing up the state machine ROMs might suck if someone hasn't already dumped them.) Maybe this guy *did* just treat that PET and Wang he restored like they were precious archeological treasures from the moment he got them and didn't dare power on anything until he white-gloved every inch of them, but, sorry, that's an unreasonable expectation.

(Especially when it's obvious from the massive burn-in on that monitor and other aspects of the condition that this terminal was ridden very hard and put away very wet in its previous life and was essentially "garbage" by the time it was taken out of service. Maybe if it were the only ADM-1 left in existence you could play the "But it belongs in a museum!" game and b***h about how it doesn't belong in novice hands but, sorry, no. The CHM has a nicer one already. History is safe even if you make a boo-boo with this one. And your goal is clearly to "play with" your things, not just stick them on a pedestal, so in my humble opinion you have one in exactly the right starting condition for that; it's already ruined so the only place it has to go is up! That describes most of my vintage computer collection, honestly, and I think I prefer it that way.)

So, yeah. I'm kind of curious if the guy is going to answer your request for more detail about exactly what you supposedly did wrong, but whether he does or not by all means feel free to ignore it.

FWIW, I do remember in a thread a while back about that SWTPC printer I gave you a little grief for just plugging-and-trying the cable that came connected to it to a PC parallel port, but I hope I made it clear why that very specific thing isn't a great idea. (Long and short being that DB-25 cables are the worst thing in the entire classic computing universe because unless you have the manual you have absolutely no idea what the pinout will be, even if the "function" matches, because it's the most overused connector EVAR.) I definitely didn't want to discourage you from experimenting with these things generally, it was meant as just an actionable "best practices" recommendation in the future.
 
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creepingnet

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That's kind of the problem with some communities, especially YouTube, in general is there's always someone who has their idea on what the "right" way to do something is and they feel the need to impose that opinion on everyone else. Likley because of some kind of deep-rooted self-righteousness.
 

Mr.Amiga500

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I released a new video today where I did a cursory examination of my ADM-1, gave some history, etc.

I saw your video early this morning. I thought it was great.

From what I saw, the only part that wasn't "proper" was when you broke the space bar. I cringed at that. (...mainly because I did the same thing once)

The guy complaining was a jerk. Ignore him.
 

ibmapc

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... What is the 'correct' procedure for restoring things? ...
Sometimes " Restoring" is the wrong approach. I believe in preservation. Keep it from deteriorating, and hopefully, keep it working. I think you're doing great! Some people will go to far and ruin the value of a classic.
 

falter

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I saw your video early this morning. I thought it was great.

From what I saw, the only part that wasn't "proper" was when you broke the space bar. I cringed at that. (...mainly because I did the same thing once)

The guy complaining was a jerk. Ignore him.
Yes the space bar.. I kind of got a bad feeling that would happen. The stabilizer bar is very strong and you kind of have to get the loop through on one side and then bend the bar out to get into the hole. But it slipped, and the plastic is *very* brittle now so that's all it took. With the gorilla glue it was good as new and not even noticeable. But yeah. The funny part was I could visualize it happening as I attempted it because I could see how tricky it was.
 

falter

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Haters gonna hate, that's how the Internet works, alas. I read the guy's comment and frankly I don't even get what his beef is; you at no point claimed this was documentation of a "complete restoration" and it's not like you sawsall'ed it open like the "What's Inside?" guy and just spread its guts out to gawk at. Doing a basic exploratory once-over and testing is what normal humans do when they receive something in unknown working condition, and while this dingus may be "old" and "rare" it's not like you started chiseling the Antikythera mechanism for crying out loud.

Obviously some basic caution is a good idea, like (if possible) isolating and testing the power supply before moving on to the main logic board, etc, but this is solid state TTL electronics, which frankly can be pretty darn robust if you don't zap them hard enough to let the smoke out. (And so what if you did, honestly? Yes, it'd suck, but a few hundred dollars at Unicorn Electronics and bridging a few zapped traces would be the price for that lesson... although I guess blowing up the state machine ROMs might suck if someone hasn't already dumped them.) Maybe this guy *did* just treat that PET and Wang he restored like they were precious archeological treasures from the moment he got them and didn't dare power on anything until he white-gloved every inch of them, but, sorry, that's an unreasonable expectation.

(Especially when it's obvious from the massive burn-in on that monitor and other aspects of the condition that this terminal was ridden very hard and put away very wet in its previous life and was essentially "garbage" by the time it was taken out of service. Maybe if it were the only ADM-1 left in existence you could play the "But it belongs in a museum!" game and b***h about how it doesn't belong in novice hands but, sorry, no. The CHM has a nicer one already. History is safe even if you make a boo-boo with this one. And your goal is clearly to "play with" your things, not just stick them on a pedestal, so in my humble opinion you have one in exactly the right starting condition for that; it's already ruined so the only place it has to go is up! That describes most of my vintage computer collection, honestly, and I think I prefer it that way.)

So, yeah. I'm kind of curious if the guy is going to answer your request for more detail about exactly what you supposedly did wrong, but whether he does or not by all means feel free to ignore it.

FWIW, I do remember in a thread a while back about that SWTPC printer I gave you a little grief for just plugging-and-trying the cable that came connected to it to a PC parallel port, but I hope I made it clear why that very specific thing isn't a great idea. (Long and short being that DB-25 cables are the worst thing in the entire classic computing universe because unless you have the manual you have absolutely no idea what the pinout will be, even if the "function" matches, because it's the most overused connector EVAR.) I definitely didn't want to discourage you from experimenting with these things generally, it was meant as just an actionable "best practices" recommendation in the future.
Yeah the printer plug in was just dumb. I checked a couple wires and concluded that a DB25 and two wires in the right place meant we had a PC style parallel pinout. Doh. Luckily.. I got away with that one. I think I mentioned it in the video I did to warn others never to assume. Generally these days I'm a lot more cautious. 10 years ago I would have just plugged her in.. but most of the time now I actually break put a manual, a DMM and a scope if need be and check things out. Only takes one bang to make you a bit more careful.
 

VERAULT

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We have all done this! I have personally destroyed plenty of computers, boards, cards, RAM, cpus, CRT TUBES, whatever by just being too comfortable and getting careless.. It happens. Learn from your mistakes.
 

Eudimorphodon

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Some time ago YouTube's suggestion algorithm randomly went on a spree of showing me thumbnails to videos by a guy who apparently wanders the American South finding cars (or the remains thereof, they're often reduced to little more than just a frame, a fragment of the cab/hood/cowl, and the motor) that have been sitting abandoned for fifty years or more. And when he finds these wrecks (which he collects either for restoration or to use as parts for other restorations) he makes a video about seeing if he can get the motor to start. So you'll have a car that's hardly even there anymore, engine block covered with rust, carburetor filled with a wasp nest, all the wires completely rotted, etc, and he just starts wrenching on it. I've only watched a couple of them but, yeah, by the end of the video he'd manage to make an engine that didn't even look like it'd be worth melting down into wrought iron fence posts burst back into life. Doesn't even bother dragging the wreck back to his workshop first, just pounds on it with a hammer (sometimes literally) right where the car lies and usually doesn't do much more beyond cleaning, unsticking, and lubricating what's there and replacing an ignition coil and sparkplug or two (or twelve).

I have to admit that sometimes some of the things you've collected and the process of reviving them remind me of that guy. Definitely take that as a complement.
 

falter

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Is that the Will It Run guy? I love those videos. It's fascinating to watch something left for dead brought back to life, if only briefly. I used to be into vintage cars in a big way but decided to get out because of the cost. One of my favorite youtube shows was Roadkill, while it was still a youtube show. They'd pull a GMC pickup that'd been sitting in a yard for 30 years, fix it up enough to drive right there.. and then try to go cross country. I loved it because it showed you could still enjoy the hobby if you let go of the idea that you needed to spend $200k on a frame off resto to make it perfect first. That's kind of my philosophy.. get it running, enjoy it. If you're *really* passionate about it, then by all means go for resto. But personally I like looking at original paint, stain, and so on. I feel like if I overhaul that I take away from its history.
 

VERAULT

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is it jennings motor sports guy on youtube? i love his videos !

Im subscribed to his stations. Junkyard digs is another. i watch a few thst do the same for small engine work as well. one of them is Enlgish and does the same with rotted wrecks of home yard equipment.

there is hand tool rescue for small machine and mechanical appliance repair.. really well done.. and there is a similar european restore station.. that guy does 110%. everything is nicer than new
 
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stepleton

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I consider your videos to be pretty top-shelf in the Old Computer genre -- the humour and the in-depth historical context are a pleasure to watch, and I nearly always learn something I didn't know. Often the systems you're showing are unique, and with the possible exception of the various Commodore or Apple hagiographies, I find you do a more consistent job than most of talking about the people who made and used the machines. I hope you keep making videos your way and ignore people who want you to do it their way --- I'll certainly keep watching!

For the very little that it's worth, you can pick nits on your commenter's videos, too. In this one, the first one I've clicked, we have the claim in 30 seconds that a computer that doesn't use a microprocessor is a minicomputer, which I don't think is the most helpful definition (so I guess an IBM 5100 is a minicomputer, and a PDP-11/23 is not). (note to anyone itching for a "what's a minicomputer" debate: maybe in a different thread?)
 

Eudimorphodon

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One of my favorite youtube shows was Roadkill, while it was still a youtube show.

Ha! My favorite episode of that was the one where the two of them drove around in a “Rat Rod” and a shiny new Lamborghini and discovered that members of the opposite sex were apparently way more attracted to the rust bucket. And that’s why most of my old computers are basically rat rods. ;)

(Wait, that logic might not hold up…)
 

falter

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Ha! My favorite episode of that was the one where the two of them drove around in a “Rat Rod” and a shiny new Lamborghini and discovered that members of the opposite sex were apparently way more attracted to the rust bucket. And that’s why most of my old computers are basically rat rods. ;)

(Wait, that logic might not hold up…)
My favorite is the Low Rider ep, where they try to take one of those trick cars that can jack itself up into the desert for offroading. A truncated version is still on youtube. It was hilarious.
 

vwestlife

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Some people are not only wrong, they are arrogant in their wrongness. This was a comment on my video about the VGA port on an IBM PS/2, which is not 16-pin, and I never claimed IBM invented the connector:


16pin.png
 

VERAULT

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That was a good video by the way. I remember doing the same thing (melting a pin into the video port) all the way back in the 90's.

The problem today is everyone is a delicate flower and noone is accountable for thier words.

Say what you want about "bullying", it kept a certain amount of people in check from saying whatever came to mind with no filter. The world needs more of that, not less (filtering).
 
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tradde

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Well, common sense is not so common any more. And that sometimes it's best to keep ones mouth shut. Don't have to comment on anything. But some folk think they have to. As Verault says there seems to be no accountability today so everyone thinks they need to speak. They don't. Keep up your good work.
 

VERAULT

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It was a maybe 4 or 5 years ago, there was a user here I dont remember the name. He was so upset and raving how we were all idiots and didnt know how to dischage CRT's. Those of us who use a lead and the tip of something to discharge were doing serious damage and the ONLY way to do it properly was with a certain $175.00 (at the time) CRT discharge tool. Even though many people said they have always used the tool and lead method he was still going on and on about how wrong we all were.

Again.. More than one way of skinning a cat and all.
 

Eudimorphodon

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is it jennings motor sports guy on youtube? i love his videos !

That was probably one of them? I seem to recall there was more than one channel doing the same thing. It's funny how YouTube works like that; no matter how weird of a "hobby" it is there's more than one guy out there posting videos about it. A particularly oddball suggestion binge I remember was there were multiple channels where people were buying this small horizontal-shaft gasoline engine they sell at Harbor Freight for a couple hundred dollars and demonstrating how it can be installed in... just about anything. They were stuffing them in old Toyota mini-pickups, a first-gen Honda Insight, demonstrating how with the right gearing you could pull a semi (very slowly) with one, it was madness.

(But, eh, at least it wasn't videos of people popping their zits. Apparently that's a huge Youtube genre all on its own...)
 
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