gerrydoire
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8-Bit IDE Controller
- Thread starter Agent Orange
- Start date
JohnElliott
Veteran Member
It's a pretty obvious suggestion, but: if the card was designed for a ROM or EPROM, they probably wouldn't have bothered connecting up what, on an EEPROM, would be the 'write' pin.
NobodyIsHere
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Hi Hargle! Great! Interesting to see more people maybe helped by the project.
However, this seems rather suspicious to me. I can see the IDE control port working fine but the 16 bit data port is split between a HIGH and LOW port. Are you sure you are seeing all the data going to/from the drive and not losing the upper or lower byte along the way? If not then the Acculogic board is using a similar port configuration as the XT-IDE board and that is good news.
I don't know for sure since I haven't seen the schematic but my first suspicion is that the Acculogic board probably does not include a *MEMW line to signal the EEPROM to do a memory write. If the board is designed to use a ROM then there would be no need for it. Check if pin 27 is connected to anything on the Acculogic ROM socket. Preferably its connected to pin 11 of the ISA bus.
Ouch! I'd hold off on the victory lap until some further testing though. IDE is a strange beast and will gladly seem to work but not really be entirely there for you.
Good idea to test though. Please let me know how it works out.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
PS, does the Acculogic board allow the use of DMA modes?
hargle
Veteran Member
Yep, all 16bits of data is there. They are using the same latch mechanism as we are, even putting the 2nd data port at IOBASE+8. It all just worked.
The only other thing they do, is they have a 2nd copy of the command/status register mapped to IOBASE+E. I suspect it's acting as the alternate status register, which is where resets are sent to, and you can read it without triggering an IRQ ACK. I haven't found that we need such a thing yet, but then I haven't implemented IRQs yet either.
The other thing that is interesting is that they hard code their IO base address to 360-368, plus a single IO port at 36E. On my XT, without the card in, I had something responding to all those IO ports already. My port list says that 360-367 are for a "PC network (XT only)" but I don't have anything in my XT other than my CGA card and floppy controller.
Yep, that makes sense. thanks to both you and john elliot for pointing that out. I'll scope out that line and see if it's a NC on the card. Probably is.
So what that means is that anyone with an acculogic card who would want to have flash upgrade ability would just need to add a single wire from ISA pin 11 to pin 27 on the ROM. easy enough. Otherwise, the andrew lynch ROM burning service might be of use.
Nope. I saw nothing in the BIOS disassembly to do DMA transfers. To be honest, I didn't even see anything in their BIOS to handle IRQs either! You can jumper select the IRQ line, but I didn't notice any ISRs in place.
per
Veteran Member
My guess is that the Acculogic is designed for EPROMs, not EEPROMs. Maybe the /WE signal might be permanently held high by the Acculogic card.
hargle
Veteran Member
So what that means is that anyone with an acculogic card who would want to have flash upgrade ability would just need to add a single wire from ISA pin 11 to pin 27 on the ROM. easy enough. Otherwise, the andrew lynch ROM burning service might be of use.
just had a chance to check this out. I assume we're talking B11 on the ISA bus, (System Memory Write) and alas, there isn't even a tooth there to connect to the ISA bus. So, acculogic users will not be able to flash upgrade their cards. I will enclose the latest working BIOS in bob watts' card when I ship it, but it'll be up to you to upgrade it in the future, should there ever be any changes required. (there certainly will be)
channelmaniac
Veteran Member
Jeff,
You have 2 emails from me tonight about parts. One is my cell # in case you wished to call me about them.
Raymond
You have 2 emails from me tonight about parts. One is my cell # in case you wished to call me about them.
Raymond
Mike Chambers
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i'm just so glad this is actually getting done. how soon do you guys estimate these should be ready for purchase? i'm getting at least one for SURE! so cool that we'll be able to use 16-bit AT style drives without shelling out hundreds for the increasingly rare acculogic or similar cards. 8-bit drives are only going to get more scarce anyway. soon enough, none will be left working at all.
can i be a tester? muahahaha.
can i be a tester? muahahaha.
hargle
Veteran Member
At the moment, both PCBs (first prototype run of 10) and some parts are racing their way toward me via UPS. I suspect I'll have everything by the end of next week. I'm then going to pack everything up and ship at least 1 set of everything to andrew for first assembly, and we'll see where that takes us.
With luck, we will having working PCBs and a combination of ICs that work solid and are readily available. Then I'll build up some more boards and those get distributed to testers.* Once it's been through the wringer a few times, we will then push the big button and get 100 cards made up and the madness begins! No ETA on the big order because we have no idea what sort of things will creep up in the beta phase.
stay tuned...
* Not sure how the testers scene is going to be handled yet:
1) each card is expensive. do testers buy them, and then forced to do work too? that's not really fair. do i just add the costs of these cards to the bulk order price per card to recoup?
2) hardware is in flux at the moment. how do we change parts on cards that have been scattered around the world?
3) are testers expected to able to solder to make mods? How about debugging code? We need testers who are able to get their hands dirty and say more than "xyz doesn't work" and help us find out why/where/how something may be at fault.
ideas and suggestions are welcome!
With luck, we will having working PCBs and a combination of ICs that work solid and are readily available. Then I'll build up some more boards and those get distributed to testers.* Once it's been through the wringer a few times, we will then push the big button and get 100 cards made up and the madness begins! No ETA on the big order because we have no idea what sort of things will creep up in the beta phase.
stay tuned...
* Not sure how the testers scene is going to be handled yet:
1) each card is expensive. do testers buy them, and then forced to do work too? that's not really fair. do i just add the costs of these cards to the bulk order price per card to recoup?
2) hardware is in flux at the moment. how do we change parts on cards that have been scattered around the world?
3) are testers expected to able to solder to make mods? How about debugging code? We need testers who are able to get their hands dirty and say more than "xyz doesn't work" and help us find out why/where/how something may be at fault.
ideas and suggestions are welcome!
Mike Chambers
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i was kidding about the tester bit, but i actually could do it if you'll be sending a few off for that purpose. i'm far from an ASM expert though, which is probably vital in debugging the code. i do have a massive variety of 8088 motherboards i can try it in though. i could also try it in my tandy 1000tx. there are probably a number of better choices of people to send to here, but i can definitely give the card a workout with diff machines/drives.
per
Veteran Member
As long as the final board will be under $75 each, you will be able to sell them. If you mannage to stay under $50, you will be safe to sell most if not all of them.
What is the actual total cost per card if a bulk of 100 is made the same way you make the 10 beta cards?
NobodyIsHere
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Hi Hargle! My recommendation is to count the initial batch of PCBs and parts as development overhead and spread the cost across the production units. You are certainly entitled to recoup your costs and even make a fair profit considering the money, time, blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into this project. The vintage computer community as a whole will benefit from making this part available so I do not think it unreasonable to ask for some help to make it happen. I am sure there people willing to help if given an opportunity. I know am willing to help and will continue to support the project as best I can. Life isn't fair and I think we all know that.
My recommendation is the initial round testers should be chosen from a pool of willing and able volunteers. By able, I mean those with the resources and patience to deal with the design hardware and software in an early developmental state. Like be ready with the technical skills, parts, DEBUG, a razor blade, a hot soldering iron, and an oscilloscope warmed up and ready to go. Most likely the initial round testers are going to discover problems that will range from minor to severe and everything in between. More than just find problems the initial testers should be capable of delving into the design to make recommendations on hardware and software fixes.
In addition, I recommend that the initial round testers be given an option of just receiving the PCB alone and letting them supply their own parts. That will lower your costs, hopefully, improve some variety in the testing and possibly lead to improvements in parts selection as the discussion ensues. I strongly recommend all the initial round testers use sockets for parts and be ready to desolder components for replacement as needed. In addition, they should be prepared with techniques like "cuts and jumpers" and "dead bug" modifications to tweak the design as needed. I don't think that would be necessary but who knows what is lurking in the bowels of this thing waiting to be discovered.
I believe there are plenty of qualified people here based on the above description and would be willing to volunteer to test. If the cost of ordering the initial round of PCBs is too much of a burden, I also think it reasonable that the testers or any other interested volunteers be allowed to *donate* some funds to cover the costs. I don't know what your PCB unit costs finally turned out to be but I suspect its probably in the $20 range or so. I have no problem sending you $20 plus shipping for an initial round PCB. That being said, please PLEASE do not accept pre-paid orders, advance orders, etc as those are the short path to hell.
Frankly, I consider any of my time, effort, money, or whatever in this project to be ENTERTAINMENT and if it ended tonight I'd consider it a success. That's my $0.02. I hope it helps.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
gerrydoire
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You can add me to the first round of testers..
:-D
:-D
Mike Chambers
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same here if you think i am qualified enough. i'm no electrical engineer, but i'm handy enough with a soldering iron and a razor blade if there needs to be some rewiring done for testing. my 1000tx would also be a good oddball machine to test it in. even more so with the 1000hx if i get an ISA adapter for it.
per
Veteran Member
I would recomend that participating for testing should be done basically by PM as it might flood the board. If voting is to take place, that'll be in another thread.
Speaking for myself, where do you get oscilloscopes?
Speaking for myself, where do you get oscilloscopes?
Ole Juul
Veteran Member
Even a small electronics store should have one or two in stock. It may be best to do mailorder though - look for "test instruments". Good scopes are expensive so be careful that it can do what you want - especially frequency wise. There's a big difference in scopes. That said, if you don't have one, then any old used scope can be great to have, just be aware that many old ones are not worth more than 20 bucks. Someone into ham might be able to give you a junker. You'll learn a lot!
per
Veteran Member
Problem solved. My uncle got one I can borrow (he actually never use it, however he don't want to sell it to me).
