• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

Why did DOS/86 overtake CP/M-z80 ?

Zilog had fallen on hard times in the early 80s; the Z8000 garnered almost no interest and Zilog was picked up at bargain prices by Exxon (using the windfall profits from the OPEC embargo aftermath). Exxon did a remarkably bad job at running their new aquisitions (Qyx and Qwip and Zilog) and eventually, the employees bought the company back in 1989.
I recall an engineer friend sometime around 1983 remarking that the wholesale price of a Z80 was about $0.75--less than the RAM needed to run it. Zilog's offerings were never very deep and that hurt them.
Since then, Zilog has been passed around in various deals; the most recent was being acquired by Littlefuse in 2017. I don't know what the survival prospects are for the brand.
 
It’s kind of remarkable just how “a day late and a dollar short” both the Z800/Z280 and the 65816 were. If these CPUs had come out in 1980 they might have been relevant enough to shut the door on the 8088. But, no, both were delayed to 1986, well after the world had moved on from “needing” a binary compatible 16 bit upgrade for the Z80 or 6502 respectively. I guess at least the 65816 managed to score a place in one company’s swan song computer, the Z280 didn’t even get that.
 
It's worth noting that "improved" versions of the Z80 were introduced by others before Zilog decided to awake from its slumber. Hitachi's 64180 (still have one those in my parts box), for example, which eventually was the basis for the Z180. National attempted a grab at the 8085 market with the NSC800. But even the Hitachi chip didn't come along until 1986, long after the PC had moved on. Zilog didn't even come out with a CMOS version of the Z80 until 1985.
Sharp's LH5801 was similar to the Z80, but with fewer registers and instructions.
Basically, when the 5150 came out, it was mostly curtains for any Z80 designs (not counting portable devices).
 
A thing I'm noticing here is you seem to be pretty myopically focusing on "z80" (which you're making semi-synonymous with "CP/M") vs "DOS/86/PC/IBM/whatever", as if some binary choice like that was all that existed. That's not even remotely true.
Well, that's not an innaccurate observation - That is what I am doing... And it was a choice, except z80/CP/M was missing from the choice, so the PC only ever got compared to things like the Amiga and ST and Mac most of the time... And maybe the odd workstation.

And as you note, the z80 and 8088 are pretty close in performance for the same clock. But I recall people thinking it was very different. Though PC graphics were a lot slower than a lot of home PCs of the era. 6502 again, different architecture. And we never really saw the CMOS z80s of the day clocked to 30MHz, because I don't think overclocking was well regarded back then. It was considered fairly unreliable, though history has taught otherwise. I was really surprised when I saw 486 chips coming out with heatsinks. The early ones most certainly didn't.

It seems very much that CP/M and z80 systems got the world ready for computers at a time when prople didn't know what a computer should be.

The ideas that were presented about people just trusting IBM, because well it was IBM, make a lot of sense. And a copy of an IBM by any other name would work just as well. It seems that maybe the IBM PC just came along at the right time. The previous era was mostly hobbiests, and business was already primed and looking for the next big thing. If it wasn't the PC, it probably would have been the Mac and Atari and Commodore would still be around.

Graphics demand had emerged, but as you pointed out, CP/M isn't a graphics OS. Neither is DOS, but the PC had CGA, and it contained backwards compatible video modes all the way back to MDA, but added in standard graphics modes so that software accessed the screen and it was reliable across most of the clones as well, and the base modes were all accessed through the video BIOS. That also worked out for the PC-88 which did particularly well even when the MSX replaced it, because adventure games were always released on the PC-88. It had it's own market niche.

The ability to add in BIOS was another key element of the PC, which really expanded on how the computer worked. It didn't support graphics like GEM did, but it did allow program access to regular repeatable graphics systems. And add in things like disk systems without complicated drivers to load.

Meanwhile there was no fight from the CP/M and z80 camps because there was no alternative. No one produced anything like that within the regular market. The allure of a regular addressible memory system eliminated proprietary paging solutions. It does seem to be a combination of all of those factors.

Thanks for your thoughts ! :)
 
Have you looked at the East German KC85/4? That was the ultimate Z-80 platform made possible by large amounts of cheap imported memory.
Yes, and while they technically could run CP/M (called "MicroDOS"), I have never seen the disk drive upgrade in person; it also did not help that the whole country folded shortly thereafter. Last year, I started to build a cassette-loaded CP/M 2.2 which runs from a RAM disk; it's partially functional at this point but the hardware I had access to as a child is no longer.

That being said, the East Bloc is an interesting place to look at, because the 8-bit world lived far longer there. Many countries had their own 8080 clones, while the GDR had the Z80. There were interesting architectures, and some of those systems lived well into the mid-90s in some cases. On the other hand, transition times between XTs, ATs and 386 machines were incredibly short, as the markets were flooded with cheap surplus machines in short successions.
 
It’s kind of remarkable just how “a day late and a dollar short” both the Z800/Z280 and the 65816 were. If these CPUs had come out in 1980 they might have been relevant enough to shut the door on the 8088. But, no, both were delayed to 1986, well after the world had moved on from “needing” a binary compatible 16 bit upgrade for the Z80 or 6502 respectively. I guess at least the 65816 managed to score a place in one company’s swan song computer, the Z280 didn’t even get that.

I wonder if Zilog ever considered fighting the '86 architecture...
 
And as you note, the z80 and 8088 are pretty close in performance for the same clock. But I recall people thinking it was very different.
The 8088 is somewhat source-compatible superset of the 8080/Z80, and while its support for more memory/address space is awkward, it is far better than the bank-switching alternatives. Also, the home computers with fancy graphics and sound used special chips, which the PC did not have.
 
The 8088 is somewhat source-compatible superset of the 8080/Z80, and while its support for more memory/address space is awkward, it is far better than the bank-switching alternatives. Also, the home computers with fancy graphics and sound used special chips, which the PC did not have.
Well, didn't have until 1987... And VGA was getting cheaper around 1988... After that it really started to pick up steam and move ahead.

It took a few more years until 3D graphics accelerators went mainstream.

My memory of that era is a little foggy... I discovered girls around then and met my now-wife. If I hadn't started working in several computer shops during that era, I probably would have missed the era entirely.
 
Fancy chips were available with third party video cards and many other expansion cards. Few home computers could match the 640x480 with 16 colors of an enhanced EGA clone. While the monitor needed was expensive, the video card was quite affordable. IBM used a very cautious approach involving only established chip designs for most models until starting on the PS/2 line.
 
there is a simple explanation in that Cp/m was not even a known option.

I learned about Cp/M years later in the late 1980s and it wasn't until the 2000s that i even played around with it.

the official computer retailers of the day, didn't even give an option for CP/M when purchasing a new IBM computer.

They would have been profit driven so DOS being cheaper let them keep more of the profit.

In the years that followed DOS was heavily bootlegged so when you bought a clone from some dudes house in the suburbs he would preload the 20meg hard drive with DOS 3.31, by the 1990s you got dos 6.22 preloaded on everything.

so thinking back to 1984-1986, never heard a person in my computer circle even mention CP/M. Unix was mentioned all the time as was MS DOS and some DOS replacements or shell replacements.

by the time of bootleg trading circles for software it was whatever everybody had and that was either something for Apple or commodore or something for DOS running on a clone.

If Cp/M was being given away like Dos was in the late 80s it would have kept up traction in the market.
 
there is a simple explanation in that Cp/m was not even a known option.

I learned about Cp/M years later in the late 1980s and it wasn't until the 2000s that i even played around with it.

the official computer retailers of the day, didn't even give an option for CP/M when purchasing a new IBM computer.

They would have been profit driven so DOS being cheaper let them keep more of the profit.

In the years that followed DOS was heavily bootlegged so when you bought a clone from some dudes house in the suburbs he would preload the 20meg hard drive with DOS 3.31, by the 1990s you got dos 6.22 preloaded on everything.

so thinking back to 1984-1986, never heard a person in my computer circle even mention CP/M. Unix was mentioned all the time as was MS DOS and some DOS replacements or shell replacements.

by the time of bootleg trading circles for software it was whatever everybody had and that was either something for Apple or commodore or something for DOS running on a clone.

If Cp/M was being given away like Dos was in the late 80s it would have kept up traction in the market.
I think you're right on the mark. Bootleg DOS was ever present. Still is.
 
I wonder if Zilog ever considered fighting the '86 architecture...

The Z8000 was a reasonable contender - just not widly taken up by the computer vendors. Olivetti being one that did of course.

Interestingly, the Z8000 (if my old and ancient memory serves me correctly) is still around today - but is hiding inside embedded machines (communications mainly).

Dave
 
CP/M-86 survived for a number of years in specialty markets that needed its limited background multitasking but didn't require much DOS compatibilty like Siemens phone workstation. It was a tough sell to anyone else. $200 more for an OS that didn't run 123 made a less than compelling choice.

From the late 80s on, DRI repackaged CP/M-86 as DR-DOS to moderate success.
 
Well, that's not an innaccurate observation - That is what I am doing... And it was a choice, except z80/CP/M was missing from the choice, so the PC only ever got compared to things like the Amiga and ST and Mac most of the time... And maybe the odd workstation.

CP/M wasn’t part of the conversation because it had already lost well before the "PC vs. Mac vs. Amiga vs. Whatever" conversation had started.

I mean, it really is that simple. For all the reasons I laid out the CP/M-80 platform was essentially obsolete by 1983 at the very latest. (Picking that as the date because it's when CP/M Plus/3.0 came out, but the limited adoption of that release underlines that it really was already effectively a dead product.) A thing you need to understand, though, about how things were back then verses today, is that in the first decade (and a half?) of personal computing a "dead" platform could still enjoy a very long and healthy zombie existence. To be clear, I'm not just talking about die-hard users clinging like mad to their discontinued orphans; there were plenty of companies that were perfectly happy to keep churning out new units of computers they'd mostly lost technical interest in for as long as people were willing to buy them. (In fact they'd often turn into lucrative cash cows the companies would milk vigorously to fund their successors; the Apple II is the poster child for this. The Macintosh might have gotten the bulk of the "mind share" when it came out in 1984, but there were reports that 85% of the company's revenue was still coming from the Apple II division in late 1985, and Macintosh sales didn't pass II revenue until 1988.) CP/M was technically a thing that was still "out there", but it didn't mean it was actually relevent in any future-looking discussion.

(And as I noted, that platform fragmentation issue it suffered from effectively made it even less worthy of discussion than the Apple II or a few other still-popular legacy 8-bit platforms, because by and large outside a few scattered markets there was never really a sufficiently dominant CP/M-centric platform to be worthy of specific consideration. Sure, in the US you still had plenty of Kaypros still kicking around doing perfectly good work as word processors or whatever, but there was nothing as compelling as, say, the Apple II's huge base of educational and game software, that would make it worth considering buying a Kaypro as your *next* computer despite its obsolesence.)

Sure, if you throw enough glitter around it you can make a Z80 computer that superficially can rival the capabilities of a mid-80's PC, or even a Macintosh or Atari ST... that is clearly the thing that's making this seem like a reasonable question to you. But it doesn't mean it was ever really a smart thing to do. Sure, if you already have committed to the Z80 for backwards compatibility or whatever then it might make some sense to keep evolving without changing that fundamental (that's why things like MSX2 exist), but the reason the 68000 CPU was the darling of the first generation of GUI-equipped computers wasn't because it was needlessly new and shiny; it was because its support for 32 bit direct addressing (no screwing around with segment registers or page flipping) made it uniquely well equipped to deal with pushing pixels around large framebuffers. Throw enough hardware acelleration and DMA at it a Z80 can work great acting as the conductor/traffic cop in an elaborate game system, no problem; it doesn't take that much CPU oomph to instruct a VDP chip to shove sprites around and respond to collision detection interrupts. But this doesn't work great for a "general purpose" PC; sprites don't help you a whole lot rendering WYSIWYG text displays, and general purpose 2D accelerators that *would* help with this task were very much in their infancy. (And usually cost more than your main CPU, and might not actually be a lot faster than it...) The Z80 is simply the wrong tool for this job. The 8086 *also* wasn't the ideal CPU for this, but it was still a lot more suited to big memory tasks than the Z80, which, again, is why it had already won that war.

At this point, sure, I guess you might ask "why if the 68000 was so much better than the 8088 why didn't it immediately render the PC as moot as it had the CP/M machine, especially given that the low-end 68000s were very price-competitive with PC clones?". And you're not going to like this answer, but it's in large part because of a reason you mistakenly attached to CP/M: installed base.

By the mid-80's the PC platform, because of its wild, unhinged growth, was the de-facto standard for software and data interchangability; a thing the industry didn't really have before now. CP/M gave manufacturers a common least-denominator thing they could customize for their hardware to get a basic computer out the door, but all the end user ever got out of it was mediocrity and massive fragmentation. By contrast, if you had a PC clone you had access to a huge library of software you could just pick and run off the shelf, you could bring work home, you could easily pirate all the good software you didn't want to pay for, there was a slew of hardware expansions and options available... In short, there were all kinds of great reasons to buy a PC if you didn't already have one, and if you'd had one for a few years you'd have a lot of good reasons to look at getting a faster/more powerful one (which were now coming out) as your next one to preserve the investment. As I said, CP/M's installed base, IE, the base of *every CP/M machine sold, by every manufacturer*, wasn't really any bigger than the number of any single other 8-bit machine's when the IBM PC came out, (maybe half a million or so, total?) so there really weren't that many of them out there. And, let's be frank, software was smaller back then. There certainly had been plenty of programs written for CP/M, but when programs were only a few kilobytes in size it's not like it was that much to ask to port the stuff worth porting to another machine. So... yeah, it really wasn't that huge of a deal for most people to just move on from CP/M when better options showed up. By contrast, IBM PC clones were selling on the order of five or six million units a year by 1985, and because these machines had their larger memories and more elaborate capabilites this software was comparatively harder to port than Wordstar. There's a lot of value to consider here, even if technically an Atari ST might offer a little better hardware bang for the buck than an XT clone for the brief period under consideration.

Discussions around the value trade-offs chosing one platform over the other were way more complex in 1985 than they were in 1982, and when you figure in how the PC platform continued to evolve as Intel introduced faster/more capable CPUs (including jumping up to 32 bit with the 386, nullifying a lot of the 68000's architectural advantages), well... yeah. CPM-80 had no place in these discussions anymore. It had already been religated to legacy applications, toys, glorified game consoles, and a few die-hard cheapskates. Which are perfectly valid niches, no shame, but yeah, not a "serious" computer platform anymore.
 
The Z80 and it's followons HD64180/Z180, Z280, Z380, and eZ80 all went more into embedded products.

Z80 and eZ80 also were chosen to power the most popular graphing calculator line in the world, the TI-83 and 84 series, which have sold who knows how many units due to their prominent place in standardized math curriculum: these bad boys run a Z80 except for the latest 84s, which sport a 48MHz eZ80, again embedded. It would not be an exaggeration to say the TI-83/84 series is the most popular computer line based on the Z80 ever made, if you count it as being a computer (it's a handheld and runs BASIC as one of its modes and can do general purpose computing: walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...).

HD64180/Z180 gets used in thermostats and alarm systems, and the Z80182 variant with its 8250 UART MIMIC function is the base for several ISA modems; the 16-bit Z280 got used in the ISA bus Specialix 02-090001 SI/XIO multiport serial cards (every Linux system with drivers for this card has a blob of Z280 object code embedded); the 32-bit Z380 got used in many telecom products and up until last year was still in production. Z180 and Z80 are both current production.

And the 24-bit eZ80 found its way into millions of PCs as the controller inside DVD burners; for a while eZ80 coding was in high demand for taking DVD drives region-free. Several eZ80 variants have come and gone, but a few are still in current production.


Z80 et al didn't fail per se; it just went embedded, a good place for 8 bit CPUs.

As to DOS versus CP/M, the much greater graphics capability of most DOS machines makes the data visualization abilities of a Lotus 123 really pop for presentations; the graphics capability as part of most default installs is a winner.

Yes, the Apple has graphics, but the PC was taken more seriously because of the IBM name.
 
Last edited:
Well, didn't have until 1987... And VGA was getting cheaper around 1988... After that it really started to pick up steam and move ahead.
Don't forget about audio, either. Before EGA and AdLib, it wasn't really a contest. But in contrast to most home computers, the PC was extensible, giving it room to grow. We've seen with the Amiga how that turned out to be a necessity in the long run.

there is a simple explanation in that Cp/m was not even a known option.
I own a badly-named non-IBM clone machine which came with both CP/M-86 (or rather its successor, "DOS Plus") and MS-DOS. The DOS Plus tools are more refined and not all tools are available for MS-DOS, so it is obvious which of the two was favoured by the vendor. That being said, MS-DOS feels much, much faster because of its disk access and file system speed. There is not a lot of caching going on (not in 256 KB RAM, anyway), but the impact is massive.

The DOS Plus disk access patterns feel a lot like CP/M-80, where data is thrown away constantly and the directory is re-read all the time. Both MS-DOS and DOS Plus use FAT, but DOS Plus can use CP/M-86 formatted disks as well.
 
Last edited:
During the introduction of the PC, there was some competition. I recall a friend owning a business who passed up the 5150 and got a Morrow MD3 bundle that included a Mannesmann Tally dot matix printer and a bunch of small business software for less money than a comparable 5150 setup. Essentially a turnkey solution for the small business owner. I see Bill Morrow's effort as the last serious attempt to court small business with CP/M. Curious thing is that the printer used an 8088 internally...

 
I see Bill Morrow's effort as the last serious attempt to court small business with CP/M.

The Xerox 820 gets mentioned a lot as a competitor to the PC, and technically they sold it at least as late as 1985 so I guess someone was buying them? Of course it was just a licensed version of the Ferguson Big Board. The main difference between a Morrow and a Big Board is the former used a terminal and the latter had video circuitry built in, but other than that they were very much the same recipe.

To be clear, I'm certainly not saying there was no value to a CP/M computer after the 5150 came out. If you just wanted a "thing" that would handle all your basic small business accounting needs, word processing, some light mailing list maintenance, then sure, a Morrow or Kaypro or any number of the other small basic CP/M 2.2 machines like that which were floating around gave you a pretty decent bang for your $1,800 or so in 1982 dollars(*). I'm simply saying they're essentially zombies by any measure of technical innovation; they're a cheap way to run three year old business software, and if that's all you want, well, sure, you're good to go. When it wears out or you chuck it in the closet because you need to upgrade to a PC you won't be sorry to see it go, at least.

(* I just peeked in a January 1984 copy of Byte for laughs, and at that point the 2-drive Morrow was lising for $929 in one ad, which is hella cheap for anything with two disk drives... although you'd need a $500 terminal to go with it, making it roughly the same ballpark as the $1,595 a two drive Kaypro II was listing for. Poking around there are ads for a bunch of other oddball trailing-edge CP/M machines, including one for the STM Pied Piper for $995. I guess compared to a single-drive Apple IIe "starter system" for $1,600 it's *possible* to call it a fair deal if you squint hard enough?)
 
My point of view at a university's administrative data processing site in the 1980s was that 8-bit personal computers weren't really taken seriously for business use, although some of us and our co-worker customers had them at home and used them to get stuff done there and some of those were CP/M systems (some of 'em were Apple ][ and C-64 and TRS-80 and Kaypro too).

I can't remember if our first Visicalc platform in the office was the HP 120 (we got one as a promotion for buying something else) or the HP 3000 with Visicalc/3000, but Visicalc/3000 got more use. That proved the spreadsheet concept, then (after looking at IBM PC, DEC Rainbow, and HP 150) we started rolling out HP 150s with Lotus 1-2-3 and Wordstar to folks who used spreadsheets and wanted 1-2-3 so they could have bigger spreadsheets. Wordstar was a straight port from CP/M, and was ready for something to push it aside, and for us that was WordPerfect, which we got running on the 150s with the PC and DC TSRs. Our customers then demanded IBM-compatible PCs over 150s so they could have a diskette format in common with their correspondents on the campuses and not need us in the computing facility to provide conversion services. One of 'em in the budget office kept his 150 too, he liked the software he had got us to get for him and the HP 7475 plotter that was hooked up to it (we could have put that on his Vectra PC).

So my things that led to us standardizing on PCs in 1986 are (1) more RAM for spreadsheets and (2) a standard diskette format for interchange. CP/M had a standard diskette format too but it was an 8-inch floppy medium and we weren't looking at anything with 8-inch floppy drives by then.

One of the reasons I chopped and scanned a bunch of stinky Morrow Owners Review and BAMDUA/BAKUP newsletters (the ones you can find on bitsavers and IA) is so folks can read about the decline and fall of CP/M from the CP/M side. It actually did take a little while for the software for MS-DOS to exceed the capability of that for CP/M; but the larger RAM address space available to applications that were written for it provided larger working spaces for the users of those applications.
 
Back
Top