Fluorescent Phaseout

[czunit]

Interesting. Back in 1996 when I bought this house I wired up six "high intensity" LED's on a breadboard with resistors and wired it into my shed's 24 volt solar power system. Left them on 24*7*365 with only occasional shutdowns to work on the battery systems.

They lasted pretty much intact until 2022, with the last LEDs failing early this year. So a "20 year lifespan" was quite accurate. Need to get a soldering iron out and replace them, I've long since replaced the overhead halogens with LEDs on a more normal switched circuit.

 

[rmay635703]

Years ago I switched over to CFL's from incandescents, and still have quite a few as replacements. At first, the cheaper brands had shorter lifespans, however the ones I currently use have been fairly reliable. I have purchased some LED bulbs and set them up in places I have trouble accessing. I get the impression I'll run into the same problem with cheaper LED bulbs regarding life cycle.

Some of the CFLs I have are extremely old and keep going, the oversized units that were supposedly equal to a 100 watt bulb seem to last longest.

Longer still have those donut shaped fluorescents from the 80’s in the basement, far as I know they are original, my father had probably 10 of them in the 80’s and at least 3 functional units are left ~40 years later. I’m not sure if it’s ballasts, bulbs or both for the failure mode. My father had disassembled the bulbs and put them away 2015, and I put several back up a couple years later frustrated with the poor lighting
but finding the matching bulb+ ballast was a pain since he seemed to have at least 3 different types. Despite having more ballasts than bulbs… In one case I have the wrong dimension ballast for the bulb but it works fine albeit angled funny (none of the ballasts seemed right). I got sort of tired running through every bulb+ ballast combination, others might still work.

A couple dollar tree bulbs are still going from long ago as well so cheaper ones occasionally survive.

The first generation LEDS in the house have died one by one, I think only 2 of the original 25+ are left. Most had a component in the base explode. I have a feeling the number that make 20 years will be very small.

 

[Moondog]

In my parent's basement there was one of those magnifying lamps. I didn't trust the transformer, so I gutted the flourescent lamp assembly and hot glued a strip of LED's around the lens. I re-used the wire that ran through the frame, and soldered it to a spare 12vdc wall wart.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

FWIW, the screw-in LED bulb I ever bought, has to be at least 12 years ago, still works in daily use. It’s a low brightness, IE, 15 or 25 watt equivalent, forget which, that I originally bought for a small clip-on lamp, but later moved to a hallway. And, again, still works fine after *many* years of being flicked on and off several times a day every day. So, yeah, it’s *possible* for LEDs to be built to last.

That said, this bulb may be the exception that proves the rule, because it was hellishly expensive when it was new and is crazy overbuilt, with a huge metal heat sink at its base despite running cold as ice. (It’s dimmable, too, which was rare when I bought it.)

 

[Chuck(G)]

We use 6 BR30-sized LED floodlamps to light our kitchen. Not dimmable, but that's not an issue--it's a kitchen. Been there (checking purchase recrods) 6 years. Still going strong--compared to a 65 watt incandescent BR30, they were relatively expensive.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

We use 6 BR30-sized LED floodlamps to light our kitchen. Not dimmable, but that's not an issue--it's a kitchen. Been there (checking purchase recrods) 6 years. Still going strong--compared to a 65 watt incandescent BR30, they were relatively expensive.

As I mentioned earlier, the LED can inserts I put in my kitchen (also six years ago) to replace the problematic CFLs are also all still going strong.

I do think LED is ultimately works better in new fixtures built specifically for it than it does in replacements for other bulbs. The LED elements for the can fixtures are a marvel of simplicity; instead of requiring a dense "cob" or other filament replacement and power circuitry crammed into tight corners they're just flat chunks of metal with the LEDs and other components bonded onto it; the resulting unit is impressively, nay, impossibly thin, runs cool, and seems to be *very* reliable. Obviously it's not practical to force everyone to replace every lamp and fixture they own with native LED models all at once, but over time I do think the problems with iffy LED "bulbs" should start solving themselves.

 

[the3dfxdude]

As I mentioned earlier, the LED can inserts I put in my kitchen (also six years ago) to replace the problematic CFLs are also all still going strong.

I do think LED is ultimately works better in new fixtures built specifically for it than it does in replacements for other bulbs. The LED elements for the can fixtures are a marvel of simplicity; instead of requiring a dense "cob" or other filament replacement and power circuitry crammed into tight corners they're just flat chunks of metal with the LEDs and other components bonded onto it; the resulting unit is impressively, nay, impossibly thin, runs cool, and seems to be *very* reliable. Obviously it's not practical to force everyone to replace every lamp and fixture they own with native LED models all at once, but over time I do think the problems with iffy LED "bulbs" should start solving themselves.

I'd appreciate if you could share some native LED options that appear to be good quality. I've tried a number of LED replacement bulbs on some projects, and they've been iffy. I also have a project coming up that will be new fixtures completely, so I'd like to review what it is you are using.

 

[Chuck(G)]

I do think LED is ultimately works better in new fixtures built specifically for it than it does in replacements for other bulbs. The LED elements for the can fixtures are a marvel of simplicity; instead of requiring a dense "cob" or other filament replacement and power circuitry crammed into tight corners they're just flat chunks of metal with the LEDs and other components bonded onto it; the resulting unit is impressively, nay, impossibly thin, runs cool, and seems to be *very* reliable. Obviously it's not practical to force everyone to replace every lamp and fixture they own with native LED models all at once, but over time I do think the problems with iffy LED "bulbs" should start solving themselves.

And when that modern LED fixture goes out in a few years, what are the odds that you can find exact parts to repair or replace it? That's my problem. The E26 screw base has been standard for more than a century. Nobody's talking about discontinuing it. I could have replaced all of the 4-bulb F40 fluorescent fixtures in my office, but instead removed the ballasts and went the retrofit route. If any of the (mostly chinese-made) fixed-bulb fixtures go out, I suspect that I'd be stuck with replacing the whole fixture, instead of the bulb.

 

[NeXT]

I've actually had a level of success with the LED replacements for fluorescent tubes. People who have pole fixtures or old hanging vacuum formed signs can't really get F48T12 VHO tubes anymore and there's 300+ watts of power being sucked down, at least they are nowhere near as cheap as they were. Option 1 is you gut them and install LED strips which looks ugly, leaves dotting if the light isn't diffused and I've had a few fail after a few months and so you drive past and it's blinking away. Option B has been the LED replacement tubes with diffusers as opposed to the clear sleeves. Socket and ballast compatible, they're fairly bright compared to a Powergroove and in the winter they're instant-on.

 

[Agent Orange]

FWIW. Since we redid the main level in our quad 20 years ago, we have 'track' lighting in the kitchen area which have 3 100 watt incandescent flood type bulbs that are pointed in different directions. In 20 years, I've replaced about 6 bulbs. I want to replace/update the kitchen lighting but really don't know which way to go and am kind of waiting for the next builder's show in my area.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

And when that modern LED fixture goes out in a few years, what are the odds that you can find exact parts to repair or replace it?

If you go with the recessed lighting inserts they have a standard plug system that's easy to use and safer than the old screw base because you'd have to work *really hard* to stick your finger in it. The insert itself is held in place by some clever little spring clips and the whole thing can be popped in and out in seconds with no tools. So... yeah, I don't see a problem here(*).

(* Okay, googling around it looks like these things are only *mostly* compatible; there's a couple bad actors that used a very similar but different plug on their brand to try to lock you in. But there are adapters if you find yourself in that boat.)

FWIW, I have noticed that there an increasing number of recessed fixtures that eliminate the can and just clip into a hole in the ceiling; those seem to use a mix of a remote junction box with a different detachable connector for the light itself, which I don't know is standardized or not, and having the junction box directly on the back of it. (I also see in this category some "smart" systems where the junction box has some control circuitry in it for wifi controlled color changing or whatever.) I imagine, sure, that depending on how proprietary these systems actually are they might be a bigger PITA, but, well, let's get real: there's a non-trivial chance in the case of the "smart" systems it's very likely that the system is going to be obsoleted by changing Wifi standards or the manufacturer leaving you SOL on control software updates before the hardware breaks, and for the non-smart systems... again, I guess I'd need to see evidence that these things smoke themselves anywhere near as regularly as the bargain-basement screw-in bulbs before I'd worry much.

As for non-recessed lighting that goes on the standard ceiling electrical boxes:

If any of the (mostly chinese-made) fixed-bulb fixtures go out, I suspect that I'd be stuck with replacing the whole fixture, instead of the bulb.

I have one of these in my dining room on a dimmer switch; it's been there for at least five years and is still going strong. If it ever breaks, sure, I might have to chuck the whole thing and replace it, but maybe I'll be sick of it by then anyway. It's only two screws and a little swearing.

 

[Moondog]

I replaced the 2' flourescent I had over my kitchen sink with a 2' LED fixture. The fixture puts out 2000 lumens, much brighter than the old tubes.

 

[Chuck(G)]

If you go with the recessed lighting inserts they have a standard plug system that's easy to use and safer than the old screw base because you'd have to work *really hard* to stick your finger in it. The insert itself is held in place by some clever little spring clips and the whole thing can be popped in and out in seconds with no tools. So... yeah, I don't see a problem here(*).

In my case, the cans are 43 years old, I don't see any quick solution with spring clips there. They're part of a vaulted ceiling that rises to about 13 feet above the floor, so it's not something that I want to casually revisit, nor am I likely to stick my finger into the fixture. They're all IC (insulation-contact) rated, so I really don't want to play with them.

I replaced the 2' flourescent I had over my kitchen sink with a 2' LED fixture. The fixture puts out 2000 lumens, much brighter than the old tubes.

Heck, those Far East-origin retrofit 4' lamps were rated at something like 3500 lumens at 6000K each. And they were horribly over-driven to get that brightness. I suspect that may be the case for your 2' fixture.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

In my case, the cans are 43 years old, I don't see any quick solution with spring clips there. They're part of a vaulted ceiling that rises to about 13 feet above the floor, so it's not something that I want to casually revisit, nor am I likely to stick my finger into the fixture. They're all IC (insulation-contact) rated, so I really don't want to play with them.

If you have cans with standard screw sockets in them they sell multi-packs of retrofit LED inserts that include a screw-in adapter with the new LED pigtail on it; the question there is mostly how the trim ring is set up on the existing fixture, IE, can it be easily removed so the insert can fit flush and if the friction clips of the replacement can get purchase... but, sure, you can just use bulbs.

I'd appreciate if you could share some native LED options that appear to be good quality. I've tried a number of LED replacement bulbs on some projects, and they've been iffy. I also have a project coming up that will be new fixtures completely, so I'd like to review what it is you are using.

My kitchen refit was with one of the Home Depot brands, but I forget which; probably either FEIT or Commercial Electric.

An interesting thing I notice when I look at the product details for these inserts is they're claiming a 50,000 hour lifespan (which at the "3 hours a day" that they seem to have standardized on for these claims works out to almost fifty years). By contrast, most of the A19-shaped screw-in bulbs are being rated at around 15,000 hours. That's still 17 years at three hours a day, which obviously is a lot longer than most people's experience says they last out in the wild, but it's still notable how much lower the manufacturers' expectations for that form-factor are. I really do suspect that most of the difference boils down to heat dissipation, in both the LED elements themselves and the driver circuitry.

Heck, those Far East-origin retrofit 4' lamps were rated at something like 3500 lumens at 6000K each. And they were horribly over-driven to get that brightness. I suspect that may be the case for your 2' fixture.

I have several very bright LED strips serving as aquarium lights (one was actually sold as an aquarium hood, the others were me taking LED strip lights designed to be mounted under kitchen cabinets and repurposing them; in one case I shoehorned a cute little 9" strip into the plastic shell of a small hood that used to eat CFL bulbs like delicious candy, while the other is just sitting on top of the aquarium's top because it was already in a nice splash-resistant shell) and they've all held up very well for years. I do think there is a gradual reduction in brightness over time, but it's not enough to be a problem yet(*). Again, I take this as evidence that native LED lamps, if even remotely well designed, just inherently work better than retrofits.

(*If you want to talk about LEDs dimming over time I do have some Christmas lights I could exhibit as prime examples. Blue ones in particular seem to suffer from it. Have a few strings that were positively radioactively bright when new that are now best described as "pastel".)

 

[Chuck(G)]

The white LEDs use near-UV excited phosphors, so those do fatigue with time. You can drive an LED pretty hard, provided you can remove heat from it well enough. The PC-on-an-aluminum substrate doesn't do a really good job, particularly where there's no large sink to conduct heat away or if there's no air circulation. I have a 50W COB that mounts on a large heatsink with fan; brighter than a 500W halogen (i.e. don't look directly at it). After a couple of years, it's still working (fingers crossed). You can easily set paper on fire with the light from that thing--I've done it.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

I have a 50W COB that mounts on a large heatsink with fan; brighter than a 500W halogen (i.e. don't look directly at it). After a couple of years, it's still working (fingers crossed). You can easily set paper on fire with the light from that thing--I've done it.

The LED lights that rabid saltwater aquarists use over their coral tanks are truely impressive beasts with fan-forced cooling; the rest of the world wants LED lights because it gives you "indoor" light levels with less power, those guys literally want to emulate the sun and LEDs let them do it with only *minor* damage to their air conditioning budgets.

(That's a niche in the hobby that's always felt way too rich for my blood, both in terms of money and dedication. Even after spending multiple thousands of dollars on the life support equipment still you have to be a chemistry major to keep everything alive.)

 

[Moondog]

Has anyone experience with external lighting, regarding insects? I heard a rumor that bugs are not attracted to LED lighting. I have flourescent light fixtures on my front porch, and they attract bugs just like the previous incandescent fixtures.

 

[Eudimorphodon]

I don't know why they wouldn't be attracted to LEDs? Gotta say, I still see plenty of moths on my front porch.

Googling around it seems like the general consensus is what matters is the spectrum of the light, not what produces it. Bugs are generally more attracted to the "bluish-white to near UV" end of the spectrum and less attracted to yellower light. Considering the wide range of color temperatures LED bulbs are available in I'd take that to mean that bugs may or may not be less attracted to your LED light than UV or incandescent, depending on what LED/phosphor you pick. The bulb currently in my porch light is a cool white color which probably explains why the moths are plenty into it. (Fluorescent fixtures also usually tend towards the blue end of the spectrum, while incandescent, even with "warm white" bulbs, also tends to emit a fair amount of near UV because of its broad spectrum.) Maybe I'd see fewer if I swapped it for a yellower one?

It might be a fun experiment to get a high-output color-changing bulb like a Philips Hue and see if there's a measurable difference in the number of bugs it attracts when walked across the spectrum.

 

[Chuck(G)]

There are equivalents to the incandescent "bug lights": https://www.amazon.com/LOHAS-LED-Outdoor-Equivalent-Backyard/dp/B09Q5WB111/ref=sr_1_4_sspa

 

[Eudimorphodon]

Whatever you do don't put a red light out. Someone might alert The Police.