A 74181 is an ALU, it cannot replace a CPU. It is a useful chip alright, but despite the Boolean logic it performs, it cannot on its own run a sequence of operations in the sense that uP can, it is better told what to do , either by a uP, or other hard wired logic to control it.until the microprocessor became common, right? It would be funny if the 74LS181 caught on instead of the microprocessor.
> It would be funny if the 74LS181 caught on instead of the microprocessor.
For me it's not the same level of integration and it was not as fast as you would imagine. They had to be put in serial plus a carry-ahead CI, plus registers to buffer the output, so it was hard to achieve more than a few megahertz.
There are also microprocessors in slices such as the AMD2900. They were used in many computers and even game consoles.
> 44ns
Yes that's what is in the datasheet for LS181 for 16 bits with carry-ahead.
But that's only the time to propagate a result from inputs to outputs.
That's not a fair comparison with microprocessors.
A fair comparison would include the instruction register, the instruction decode circuit, the pipeline registers, and all buffers for input/outputs on data and memory busses.
The PDP-11/70, one of the last TTL PDP-11, took 2 µsec to process a single operand instruction.
This includes the time to load the instruction, plus the time to process it.
In the document linked they allude to a duration of 300ns or more for EF time.
View attachment 1265498
In this case I used the 74LS181, which also consumed less power.Serial? Few megahertz?
A delay of 44 ns should make it possible to run at 10 MHz with good selection of registerfile. Using the S variant improves the situation yet more.
A variant of 74181 (S or standard) were used in most TTL PDP-11.
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You can of course make a simple uP free digital computer, with these to demonstrate 16 binary arithmetic operations on two 4 bit words. I think there have been some internet projects demonstrating it in this application.
That's a good read thanksIt was a patent breaker for the TI Microprocessor patent, not just an 'argument'
The Texas Instruments TMX 1795: the (almost) first, forgotten microprocessor
The first 8-bit microprocessor, the TMX 1795 had the same architecture as the 8008 but was built months before the 8008. Never sold commerci...www.righto.com
Argument in that it did perform microprocessor tasks as to prove evidence of previous work but in such a way that it operated more as a multi-chip processor...and the argument therein of what does and does not qualify in that context, considering no CPU before or after could really operate independently without external glue (but the F-11 comes really close). Ken's opinion on that is hard to dispute in that the AL-1 seemed to work for the demo due to playing a song and dance and hiding that it was getting away with some processor-like functions externally through the rom and latches. How TI didn't catch that is a mystery to me and as a result I had to change my own opinion on the AL-1 being the world's first single-chip microprocessor, even though it is structured more like an ALU. I can't dispute his evidence or his findings beyond a petty "well, the entire industry was fluid at the time and standards were still being finalized, so it was different back then"It was a patent breaker for the TI Microprocessor patent, not just an 'argument'
The Texas Instruments TMX 1795: the (almost) first, forgotten microprocessor
The first 8-bit microprocessor, the TMX 1795 had the same architecture as the 8008 but was built months before the 8008. Never sold commerci...www.righto.com
Part of the reason I suggested the 74LS181 is that before the 74LSxxx chips were invented these 74xxx chips would also have consumed a lot of power as well.Obnoxiously hagiographic Steve Wozniak biographies (which is most of them) usually mention the so-called ""Cream Soda Computer" that he and a buddy built in high school; there aren't any schematics or anything else other than some bad pictures documenting this thing, but it's been determined pretty definitively that the heart of it was a couple 74LS181s. Building a simple computer just like this was actually a standard exercise in computer engineering classes for many years and, no, the "Woz" didn't invent the idea.(*)
(* If you read his autobiography you get the idea that he believed that semiconductor manufacturers were just churning out silicon chips as some kind of blind cargo-cult exercise with no idea what they were good for until he came along and read the datasheet that they somehow inexplicably assembled despite having no idea what these mystery blobs were for.)
Anyway, focusing solely on how fast the 74181 and related bitslice components were on their own is kind of missing the point when comparing them to microprocessors. Yes, up until the end of the 1970's, and even into the early 80's, you could build a faster/more powerful computer out of bitslice components than you could out of microprocessors, which is why they continued being used in Minicomputers and early high-powered workstations like the Xerox Alto/Star. But to make them that fast you had to pair them with boards-worth of expensive bipolar memories and high-speed logic; yes, you can make a toy that adds two numbers together that fits on a big postcard:
("Cream soda")
But making a real general-purpose computer out of these is dozens and dozens of chips which, again, were very expensive at the time if you wanted "fast". Microprocessors were not about sheer speed (in the beginning), it was about making something that was "useful" while being optimized to use cheap supporting circuitry. These days you can make a TTL computer like the Gigatron on a board the size of a piece of paper which has pretty impressive capabilities, but the heart of it is a positively huge and impossibly fast for the 1970's microcode ROM, and its "RISC" architecture also makes it extremely RAM intensive compared to a more complex CISC design. Built out of 1970's components the Gigatron would be an order of magnitude or two more expensive and also about the same degree slower. The same amount of PCB space would go *much* further with an 8080 or whatever on it and also perform better. Up your space and budget to filling a box the size of a small file cabinet with parts then, sure, you can build something out of bitslice components that will outrun it.
Part of the reason I suggested the 74LS181 is that before the 74LSxxx chips were invented these 74xxx chips would also have consumed a lot of power as well.
A typical board, one example off the top of my head, averaging the diffence across a large number of gate and flip flop & counter types, with about 65 74 series TTL IC's (Atari's arcade Pong) draws just over 1 Amp from its 5V supply. If you populate that same board with all 74LS TTL's instead, the current consumption drops to around 0.32A.Part of the reason I suggested the 74LS181 is that before the 74LSxxx chips were invented these 74xxx chips would also have consumed a lot of power as well.
A typical board, one example off the top of my head, averaging the diffence across a large number of gate and flip flop & counter types, with about 65 74 series TTL IC's (Atari's arcade Pong) draws just over 1 Amp from its 5V supply. If you populate that same board with all 74LS TTL's instead, the current consumption drops to around 0.32A.