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KIM-1 Repairs continue

I'll see if I can figure out how to build Dwight's diagnostic board if Dwight is good with that. Should be a fun little project. Personally I think $50 says the 6530-002 is the issue. Darn you Commodore.. why couldn't you just use normal ROM/EPROMs like everyone else.
That's considerate of you, but it's certain he put it out in the world so people could do just that.

Why? Cost. End of story.

But now you have a good schematic and a couple of photos of an artisinally-wired version, so you really are set. You can use Slit-n-wrap as I do, or regular wire wrap, or point-to-point - whatever, doesn't matter. Pick the one you'd like to try out first and that fits your budget. If you need further help, just ask. And I assume you have an EPROM burner for the 27128. I can also shoot you a copy of an unfinished draft of his edited instructions. You'll want that, as it corrects a problem with the previously-available versions, namely the ordering of the switches and test descriptions. It can be very confusing otherwise.
 
I found a picture of it here. It was I think an 'unbranded' version. And it looks like they modified it - the -003 ROM is in a socket and then they have an EPROM attached to the user port. I remember it had instructions for firing up some kind of cooling system or something like that. Ugh why did I sell that for a lousy $300.
 

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That's considerate of you, but it's certain he put it out in the world so people could do just that.

Why? Cost. End of story.

But now you have a good schematic and a couple of photos of an artisinally-wired version, so you really are set. You can use Slit-n-wrap as I do, or regular wire wrap, or point-to-point - whatever, doesn't matter. Pick the one you'd like to try out first and that fits your budget. If you need further help, just ask. And I assume you have an EPROM burner for the 27128.
Appreciate it! I have a GQ-4x4 programmer. And I think even have the 27128s.. I think I bought a bunch to repair my Mindsets.. hmm..
 
What I don't have are the connectors that plug into the edge connectors on the KIM... my KIM came with two but one the pins have broken off on.. the other.. I wonder where that went..
 
More pics of the KIM-1 that I sent away.. including the listing for whatever it did on the back.
 

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"Unbranded version"? I've never heard of such a thing, but if you say it exists, I won't argue. So that isn't a piece of tape or something over the name? No - wait. That's an "M" where it should be, no?

And sockets alone aren't indicative of any sort of "modification". My two came out of the factory with the three 40p DIPs all socketed. If only one of them is, though, that suggests rework.
 
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"Unbranded version"? I've never heard of such a thing, but if you say it exists, I won't argue. So that isn't a piece of tape or something over the name?

And sockets alone aren't indicative of any sort of "modification". My two came out of the factory with the three 40p DIPs all socketed. If only one of them is, though, that suggests rework.
Nope.. I checked when I had it. I think we had a discussion here about it. It's just got the KIM-1 badge.. no Commodore or MOS. Somebody mentioned Commodore did these for some reason but I never heard why. Or maybe it was during the transition from MOS to Commodore? I don't think it had a REV number either.
 
I found a picture of it here. It was I think an 'unbranded' version. And it looks like they modified it - the -003 ROM is in a socket and then they have an EPROM attached to the user port. I remember it had instructions for firing up some kind of cooling system or something like that. Ugh why did I sell that for a lousy $300.
It is interesting that the ROM has no associated logic with it. That leads me to believe that who ever used it socket'd the -003 to disable the ROM part. Normally one would use one of the other 1K blocks as I did for my diagnostic board. So this is not a typical application. Without decoding you can just attach to the BUS like this. I can understand why one might do that if you had canned software you wanted to run. The -003 uses the I/O for the display and such but the code is just for the cassette and not needed to boot.
My board uses the decode of the 1K block described by the schematic of K3 ( as I recall ) and also the boot block when in the debug state.
Dwight
 
As promised, attached is a proper schematic for Brother Dwight's board. Having put some time and effort into it, I think I've earned the right to get up on my soapbox for a moment.

The schematic I worked from was apparently reverse-engineered from a PCB, as Dwight's original drawing was accidentally lost. The recreated schematic was, frankly, a mess - sketchy, inconsistent, and utterly failing to show any kind of rational signal flow. Signals entered in the middle of the drawing and from there went in all directions. Most of the connections weren't drawn at all, instead indicated by tags. The result was that it took an unusual amount of staring at it to figure out what was going on - in a simple circuit that anyone should be able to fully comprehend at a glance. Far from being complete, the information contained therein was so inadequate that to sort it out I had to refer to the original KIM manual, photos of the completed assembly, and stray notes.

I don't entirely blame the person who did it; I've done enough reverse-engineering to know that it's a buttload of work, and the time and difficulty involved are probably an exponential function of the number of components and nets. But if you're not ready, willing, and able to do it right, don't bother. Aside from apparently lacking any sense of what a schematic should look like, said person was further hobbled by the use of KiCAD. Now, I've thought a lot about how best to describe KiCAD's schematic capture, unable to settle on whether it's goat sodomy or a dumpster fire. Upon consideration, though, I realized that such a choice wouldn't at all be fair, because it's actually goat sodomy in a dumpster fire, and about the worst tool I can imagine for reverse-engineering, which inevitably requires repeated rearrangement of the drawing in order to wrestle a random pile of symbols and wires into a rational and comprehensible drawing. This is because its schematic capture has no proper understanding of the actual meaning of connections and nets. When you make what you think is a connection, it really isn't one at all - it's a faux connection, nothing but two coincident points in space that hold no significance whatsoever for KiCAD until some time later when a netlist may be extracted. But it's a recipe for disaster because it doesn't maintain net connectivity, which means it doesn't maintain design integrity. So I'm not just blaming the draughtsman for a bad drawing, because unspeakably poor tools make producing a quality document difficult or impossible even for someone who knows what the finished product should look like. I'm on the record as saying that KiCAD is, overall, an admirable accomplishment, and its layout tools may be first-rate, but I'll never find that out for myself as long as its schematic capture - the design process's front end - isn't fit for polite company or the attention of grownups. When I explain the reality of KiCAD's schematic capture to real live EDA professionals, their jaws drop. Every single time.

Enough of that rant. This how the drawing should look, and it encompasses all of the information needed to construct the circuit. It shows two versions: What I understand to be Dwight's original, based on the above-described recreation; my modified version. Dwight did one thing that I don't like, and that's asking totem-pole TTL outputs to sink current for the LEDs. LSTTL isn't designed to sink more than 8mA, and you can't get much brightness out of most LEDs with that little current - I usually think more along the lines of 20mA. So I replaced his 7404 with a 7405 (and the necessary pullups), and since he had two spare inverters those became my LED drivers. Oh - I also added a power LED. That may seem trivial and unnecessary, but without it this pair of boards can be live on the bench without any visible indication of such.

Hope you find it useful, and if you happen to spot any errors please let me know so I can sort them out.
In the defense of the guy who did do the schematic: he produced a working PCB from it and diagnosed his broken KIM-1 with it to working condition again. And I know others have used this PCB to repair their KIM-1s with it. So you are a bit overreacting here.
Your assessment of Kicad is also a bit over the top, Kicad IS used professionally (have you seen the Raspberry Pi PCB's?, that is Kicad!)

Any improvement to the diagnostic board of course welcome. The work of Dwight is well appreciated and works well as is.
 
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This isn't the forum in which to relitigate what is so dreadfully wrong with KiCAD's schematic capture.

As my old friend Ed says, while slowly nodding his head: "You could do it that way."

Of course, it can be done. I too worked from that drawing, and anyone who understands the difference between it and mine will grasp a part of my argument, but not the whole, because the difference lays in what's hiding under the bed - the way it works internally and in action rather than only the appearance of the final product. Anyone can make it work if they don't know any better and/or are willing to compromise. Neither case applies to me, and I do my best to help people understand why they shouldn't tolerate it either. In a world that apparently doesn't yet exist, enough users would understand its problem that the pressure from below would bring the necessary change. That's all.

But to return to the matter at hand, I have far too much to do to go looking for more work - or unnecessary fights. I found Dwight's design on your site (and thank you for the comprehensive archiving, btw) because I have a couple of KIMs that I'll eventually put up for sale but that I first want to validate. When I saw the schematic, though, I knew that though I could work from it, it took more effort to understand than it should have because it was so badly drawn. So I decided that I would express my gratitude for Dwight's work - and your having made it available - by doing a proper and comprehensive drawing that would require no unnecessary effort, research, inferences, guesses, or assumptions to turn into a working assembly. Where I still could have just banged my board together in an hour, I made an investment of a couple of extra days for the benefit of the community. Complete and proper documentation, rational signal flow, every line drawn, every pin fully described. That's how professionals do this stuff, and professionals demand more from their tools.
 
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When I saw the schematic, though, I knew that though I could work from it, it took more effort to understand than it should have because it was so badly drawn.
I have to agree with your remarks about the quality of some schematics.

I'm not sure if you saw this reverse engineering project I did. There was no schematic, so I documented the pcb tracks first, superimposed most of the logic gates on it with a transparency image, and had it printed out at the printers as a very large sheet, so I could extract the schematic from that.

Of course to get the schematic looking like this, it was about the 3rd or 4th iteration and it had to be spread to 3 pages, with the signal flows mainly from left to right and deciding what should go on each sheet, to avoid too many interconnects:


Like you I appreciate a properly drawn schematic, or at least one with a logical signal flow and device pin numbers. Starting with this Taylor-Wilson unit, initially I had no idea how it worked. And, to draw a proper schematic, ideally, it is better to understand what the circuit is doing and why. A big part of the reverse engineering was figuring out how they did it and writing up the circuit's operating theory.

Another I did was to document the IBM's 5155 power supply. Oddly, IBM & Zenith never published the schematic and board layouts. I guess at the time the SMPS was somewhat "revolutionary" and maybe they were keeping it a secret. But I have noticed that a lot of people struggle to repair computer SMPS's and if they don't have a good manual with schematics they are really up the creek. To help the vintage computing community I decided to make what is effectively a service manual for it:


This supply set the standard for many that followed and it had quite advanced over-voltage and over-current protection systems. Obviously the designers were very keen that it would never destroy a motherboard. This is what a lot of people don't realize. Generic SMPS's, not specifically designed to run computers, don't have many of these systems and can have failure modes that can over-voltage a pcb. But people grab the off the shelf SMPS supplies to replace broken computer supplies and Analog ones too, as a "quick fix" and it can risk entire computers. Also the over-current and over voltage protection and thermal protection systems built into standard vintage Analog regulators like the LM309k and its cousins (that people seem to love to want to get rid of) get underestimated by many.
 
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That's kind of funny, because that shop where I worked in the late 70s was also a big Commodore dealer, so I became intimately acquainted very early with the PET internals. We had a number of customers who immediately adopted them, and desperately needed a printer long before Commodore put theirs out. So, virtually overnight, I threw together a crude 488-serial interface box to take care of them (I might even still have my original taped-up artwork around... I should look). How crude? I didn't have the time to properly work out the 488 negotiation and addressing, just the handshake with the UART, so every byte that was output went to the printer, including the printer's 488 address (do I correctly remember 4?), resulting in a couple of extra characters at the beginning of the printout. My customers couldn't have cared less - they were just happy to get something that worked, and when I said "okay, great, just let me get the 488 stuff sorted out..." they told me not to bother, and I didn't, and they put up with it until the first Commodore printers arrived.

Taking a quick glance at your photos and schematic... who builds a commercial product using chips from Radio Shack? That's some bush-league stuff. And there's evidence of work-hard-not-smart in the design, notably in the UART clock. Really? All those CMOS jellybeans? I put down a 14411 and a crystal and was done with it.

But that's not the point of your piece, the reverse-engineering is. As I said when I stepped into this thread, much respect for anyone who does it, because it's a shitload of work, alright, that increases geometrically with each additional chip. And the constant reorganization of the drawing as it - and your understanding of it - evolves is why I raise the matter of KiCAD, where connectivity between the lines and the symbols is not maintained as you move things around.

p.s. On my main desktop machine, your PDF doesn't display with the proper font. I don't know much about this stuff (yet), but at the moment I'm undertaking a major documentation scanning project (Tektronix, Data I/O, some HP) and am climbing the curve. So I'm guessing that you should output those articles as PDF/A to eliminate this kind of problem. But I'm still learning and could be wrong.
 
Taking a quick glance at your photos and schematic... who builds a commercial product using chips from Radio Shack? That's some bush-league stuff. And there's evidence of work-hard-not-smart in the design, notably in the UART clock. Really? All those CMOS jellybeans? I put down a 14411 and a crystal and was done with it.
In this case the RS stands for Radio Spares components. The entire unit was made in the UK.

RS are a major electronics parts supplier in UK/Europe and perhaps worldwide (Analogous to Digikey, Mouser and Newark). They actually have a branch in the USA called Allied. But there is a proper RS in Mexico.

(A very funny story: for some reason in the Allied branch of RS, they refused to import BA thread screws, specifically nickel plated brass ones. BA threads were once ubiquitous in electronics gear in the UK. For some reason they had banned the foreign screw threads. In any case, a friend of mine was in the USA and needed some of these brass BA thread screws. So he had to go to Mexico, buy them over the counter and "smuggle" them in a clandestine manner to the USA. Imagine that being caught with BA thread screws in the trunk of your car).

What RS did is they simply re-labelled standard TTL IC's and some other parts, transformers, even wire with their own logo. Nearly all the IC's in the T-W unit are standard TTL's under those labels will be the usual National, TI and other logos.The power supply filter caps also have jackets with RS logos.

I can promise you that there is nothing wrong with the Baud rate generator in the T-W, it is a circuit that I think was invented by HP (A largely cmos design) and on account of the crystal, beautifully stable. On the other hand, if you look at the other commercial PET printer interfaces, with a lot less parts, like the Connecticut Microcomputer ADA1200, they used a 555 IC, and to help it not drift too far, a large polystyrene timing capacitor! And you had a multi-turn preset pot to set the Baud rate. With these ones they had to provide a software utility called "Baud Rate" to help the punter set the preset.

The T-W unit also has the software switch operated by a secondary address on the OPEN statement, which switches in the PETSCII to ASCII code converter. The T-W unit is the most sophisticated PET printer interface that I have seen so far. To get that to work, if you check the operating theory, they cooked up a very interesting circuit that I called the "second time around" to latch the secondary address and activate the code converter.
 
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I wonder if this would physically fit in a KIM-1 and work with the right ROM contents and the right 6532 to replace the 6530 ?


(I know these are good for the drives, I bought one in the past and they are good value for money too)

I think this is the same basic design as the adapter board made to replace the 6530 in the SFD-1001 and some other Commodore drives.

But, in all cases, as far as I know you cannot use just any 6532, because of the mask programming of the chip select pins. So only a certain number of 6532's will be compatible for the specific application.
 
RS are a major electronics parts supplier in UK/Europe and perhaps worldwide (Analogous to Digikey, Mouser and Newark). They actually have a branch in the USA called Allied. But there is a proper RS in Mexico.
I suspect there's a Radio Shack connection, as there was between Allied Radio and Radio Shack back in the late 60s or early 70s... yeah, there it is (from wikipedia):

"In 1970, Tandy Corporation bought Allied Radio Corporation (both retail and industrial divisions), merging the brands into Allied Radio Shack and closing duplicate locations. After a 1973 federal government review, the company sold off the few remaining Allied retail stores and resumed using the Radio Shack name. Allied Electronics, the firm's industrial component operation, continued as a Tandy division until it was sold to Spartan Manufacturing in 1981."
 
I suspect there's a Radio Shack connection, as there was between Allied Radio and Radio Shack back in the late 60s or early 70s... yeah, there it is (from wikipedia):

"In 1970, Tandy Corporation bought Allied Radio Corporation (both retail and industrial divisions), merging the brands into Allied Radio Shack and closing duplicate locations. After a 1973 federal government review, the company sold off the few remaining Allied retail stores and resumed using the Radio Shack name. Allied Electronics, the firm's industrial component operation, continued as a Tandy division until it was sold to Spartan Manufacturing in 1981."
This gives a better back story:


There is really no significant connection between RS (London based in the UK) and Radio Shack in the USA, that I know of, except that Tandy was Radio Shacks former parent company. Tandy bought Allied in the USA.

Allied much later re-branded to RS Americas inc (not "Radio Shack" RS, but RS company in the UK). Allied, who were Americas division of the London based RS group, were supplying stuff from the UK/Europe inside the USA for many years, before that name change.

The two "RS's" if one wanted to call Radio Shack one of them, are not really connected. I have never seen parts from RS UK sold in Radio Shack stores either.
 
What RS did is they simply re-labelled standard TTL IC's and some other parts, transformers, even wire with their own logo. Nearly all the IC's in the T-W unit are standard TTL's under those labels will be the usual National, TI and other logos.The power supply filter caps also have jackets with RS logos.
Okayokayokay... regardless of the corporate origins and nature of the UK "RS", this is still bush-league stuff.
I can promise you that there is nothing wrong with the Baud rate generator in the T-W, it is a circuit that I think was invented by HP (A largely cmos design) and on account of the crystal, beautifully stable.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm asking why anyone would do such a thing - higher component count (and thus lower reliability), greater PCB real estate, increased assembly labour/cost, etc., rather than use a crystal-controlled LSI baud rate generator, which is what I did at exactly the same time in exactly the same situation.
 
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm asking why anyone would do such a thing - higher component count (and thus lower reliability), greater PCB real estate, increased assembly labour/cost, etc., rather than use a crystal-controlled LSI baud rate generator, which is what I did at exactly the same time in exactly the same situation.
I'm pretty sure I saw this circuit many years ago in the late 70's in a HP medical machine, though I cannot remember which one.

There was a very good reason for it too, the machine was battery operated and it needed the low power consumption of the cmos. I noticed it right away after I drew out the rest of the T-W unit, all the other IC's in the unit pretty well are TTL, and the Baud Rate Generator stuck out like the proverbial Dog's testicles and I realized where I had seen it before in a battery operated machine.

It is an old design of course. I could roughly data the T-W unit from a 1979 date code on one of the regulators and the T-W company had a big stall at the PET Show in London, in June 1980.
 
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