Where are the 5110, 5120 and 5130 posts?

smp · Apr 25, 2024

The subject line says it all.

smp

Al Kossow · Apr 25, 2024

Literally no one cared about IBM small systems from the 70s and early 80s until very recently
except for John Titor

NeXT · Apr 25, 2024

That and they have been quite uncommon. They were expensive and didn't sell well. To this day, most of the image results for them bounce back to Geekhack/Deskthority, which also says things about where they all went.

stepleton · Apr 26, 2024

We had a lot of discussion about them here about a year or two ago. @voidstar78 was working on a small collection of them. I wonder if @smp is asking about those old posts? I know that some of the forum categories were rearranged recently; could it be that the older posts are harder to find now?

smp · Apr 26, 2024

@stepleton :
Indeed, you are correct.
From time to time there is a discussion here about these old IBM systems. They’ve been very interesting to me. I had hoped with the forum re-organization that those discussions would be collected here. Alas, not yet.

smp

Al Kossow · Apr 26, 2024

"I had hoped with the forum re-organization that those discussions would be collected here."

I don't think there is any intention of rearanging messages, too many links would break.

RetroAND · Apr 26, 2024

RetroAND said:
I made a small list of threads to be moved into the non-PC category:
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...ter-display-and-character-generation.1247762/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/searching-for-ibm-s-23-datamaster-users.1241962
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-6580-journey.1247309/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...-software-5110-5120-by-the-mid-1980s.1243734/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster.1242319/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/are-there-any-dos-ibm-system-23-disk-utilities.1239966/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-5110-initial-info.1224000/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...ing-about-the-ibm-system-23-datamaster.77335/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/fungus-among-us-or-what-the-heck-is-this.44638/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/argghhhhhhh-ibm-5322-went-snap-crackle-and-pop.43608/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-5322-repair.71935/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-5322-system-23-help-needed-rom-image.65070/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-5324.37938/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter.56176
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...ts-from-ibm-6580-displaywriter-disks.1241812/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-what-is-this-cable.1237629/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...80-displaywriter-s-36-15pin-keyboard.1237524/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter.80041/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/displaywriter-revisited.75531/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-6580-displaywriter-not-booting-correct.73057/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-printer-cable-pinouts.71445/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-6580-monitor-compatibility.53374/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-questions.58062
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-6580-has-arrived.56940
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-commercial.44932/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter.43560/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-software.35223/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-displaywriter-faulty-capacitor.14967/
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-5324.37938/#post-1290601
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?t...m-23-help-needed-rom-image.65070/#post-789656

The list is not exhaustive, but I think it could be a good start.

smp · Apr 26, 2024

Many thanks to RetroAND for your persistence in gaining the attention of the Mods!

smp

voidstar78 · Apr 26, 2024

Nice changes, good to consolidate a bit about these systems.

With only about 3000 to 5000 units sold per year for just a few years, they are niche systems. And those quantities applied in general to the Datapoints, Wangs, HP, Tektronics, and these IBMs. But talking with now-retired business owners who used them, they were good and useful systems for their day (with stories along the lines of a single IBM 5110 replacing 2-3 accountants -- which from a people/jobs perspective isn't great, but from a business finance perspective the systems paid for themselves very quickly). I think people cared, just have been overwhelmed by the volume of activity of later-gen micros that had 100,000's of units to spread around.

But from the historical perspective, I think it's good to recognize how these systems influenced the homebrew computer movement (not just IBMs like these, but the collective Wang, HP, DP, Tek, etc.).. As businesses moved on, this type of equipment trickled over into computer clubs and homes, and helped motivate the thinking of what a personally-owned computer system would even be used for. Remember, Woz's father was a Lockheed engineer - and Woz was a sponge that soaked up technical information while sitting at the back of those computer club discussions. Info such as circuit design or even where to source TTL parts (important info during pre-internet days). That was a lot of important corporate "trade secrets" shared by the HP (etc) engineers that attended those same meetings.

One thing that has been curious to me, is that as far as I can tell so far, there were no Russia clones of the IBM 5100-series. There is saying "security through obscurity", which can be why something like an obscure OS or non-mainstream solution may be preferred even if it cost more.

@stepleton
Big news! MAME officially now has the IBM 5100/5110 emulation support incorporated. Excellent work on that ! The main executive and language support are working well, though some work continues on the tape and disk support. Note, I've verified that it is literally the same cards between the IBM 5110 and 5120 - while I had my 5120, I swapped the cards it had into my 5110 and vice versa, and all worked exactly the same. So when they call the 5120 == 5110-3 (even in IBMs invoices and sales brochures), it's very much true, the 5120 is "just a 5110 with integrated 5114 disk drive system." So, this effectively implies a 5120 emulator as well. Now that it's official, I suppose that ought to be its own thread, but wasn't sure if those involved wanted the honors in doing so?

I actually hadn't kept up with MAME and didn't realize it was way more than just an arcade-game emulation engine. But it makes perfect sense that they'd support these other kinds of now vintage systems.

krebizfan · Apr 26, 2024

voidstar78 said:
One thing that has been curious to me, is that as far as I can tell so far, there were no Russia clones of the IBM 5100-series. There is saying "security through obscurity", which can be why something like an obscure OS or non-mainstream solution may be preferred even if it cost more.

The 5100 was quickly obsoleted by newer chips. There wasn't an Amdahl 5100 either. Not much point in reproducing the exact system when an equivalent can be thrown together for a lot less. The Soviets went with a number of portable mini-computers with DEC minicomputer derived CPUs. https://elektronika.su/en/calculators/elektronika-mk-90/ was perhaps the most extreme example.

voidstar78 · Apr 27, 2024

Oh, I don't know if "obsolete" is quite fair. I recall plenty of issues on RAM chip reliability in those early days of microcomputers (at least across Altairs and early Commodore's), so maybe there was something to be said for IBM going to the expense of including parity checks all over in the 5100 system. Or if nothing else, sourcing a teletype wasn't cheap, and IBM did at least make good keyboards that are still sought after today. But you're right, the SLT hardware tech didn't stand up over time - still, they were useful systems for a few years at least, just by the software that was available.

I came across some 1981 articles in Computer World where they were doing benchmark comparison of some then "high end" systems. I don't know the exact benchmark programs they were using, but it might be interesting someday to try to replicate those results (they included a Q1 Lite for example, a Z80-based system IIRC?). Here's some notes about the articles: <https://voidstar.blog/ibm-5110-benchmark-comparison/>

shattered · Apr 27, 2024

voidstar78 said:
as far as I can tell so far, there were no Russia clones of the IBM 5100-series.

I don't think they cloned everything that IBM made, just the most useful models. There probably were't enough installs to warrant cloning the 5100, unlike, say, Wang 2200.

RetroAND · Apr 27, 2024

voidstar78 said:
Oh, I don't know if "obsolete" is quite fair. I recall plenty of issues on RAM chip reliability in those early days of microcomputers (at least across Altairs and early Commodore's), so maybe there was something to be said for IBM going to the expense of including parity checks all over in the 5100 system. Or if nothing else, sourcing a teletype wasn't cheap, and IBM did at least make good keyboards that are still sought after today. But you're right, the SLT hardware tech didn't stand up over time - still, they were useful systems for a few years at least, just by the software that was available.

I came across some 1981 articles in Computer World where they were doing benchmark comparison of some then "high end" systems. I don't know the exact benchmark programs they were using, but it might be interesting someday to try to replicate those results (they included a Q1 Lite for example, a Z80-based system IIRC?). Here's some notes about the articles: <https://voidstar.blog/ibm-5110-benchmark-comparison/>

As far as I know, IBM made the parity check at least from the System/3, when memories were ferromagnetic. If anything, it means they built their small systems having their experience with minicomputers (midranges) in mind.

It would be interesting to repeat that benchmark. Only if we knew what tests did they make...

Al Kossow · Apr 27, 2024

IBM wasn't a monolythic entity. Small systems came out of many divisions/locations that in some cases competed with each other. The early 80s pre-PC was a crazy time with at least six different IBM product lines in the small computer/computerized office space. Very few examples of a bunch of those survive today.
Then, there are the Financial/POS/Industrial (shop floor) systems. Almost nothing from those are in collector's hands.

voidstar78 · Apr 27, 2024

True, and the IBM 5110 did overlap into that POS (point of sale) category (there are some photos of one being used in a department store, combined also with the "FORM" keyword added to its BASIC to make development of data entry forms much easier). Their BASIC also had matrix operations, which was omitted in most of the later microcomputer ports of BASIC. Also, you could save your programs in a LOCK state, so they couldn't be listed or modified. A separate LOCK format was used (for release distribution) to end users don't pry on your software code IP. That's separate from the SAFE/PROTECT tab of the media itself, although there were UTIL commands for doing volume-level and file-level PROTECT also (akin to the access attributes you see in Linux).

The 5100-series has parity checks even in its keyboard IO and tape/disk IO. It's sort of a pain in that every component of the system must pass those checks, or else you get a Process Check error light and a system halt.

I'd say a lot of the more recent interest on these systems is due to bitsavers, and those who have volunteered the time to digitally scan the massive IBM manuals (and then IBMs overall thoroughness at writing those manuals - which are like HELMS manuals used in the automotive world today). Much of that didn't happen until around c. 2018, maybe related to bitsavers now having the server side capacity to store larger files (github has also been increasingly more generous about the size limits of files over time; youtube also as they increase their backend infrastructure over time).

voidstar78 · Apr 28, 2024

RetroAND said:
It would be interesting to repeat that benchmark. Only if we knew what tests did they make...

Well as one candidate:

Creative Computing Benchmark - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Though seems to me, for consistency, R should be initialized to 0? Maybe it doesn't matter. It covers some SQR and SQRT. Obviously that's not the benchmark they ran (being the articles were from 1981), I'm not sure how they modeled an "accounting problem." But a commonized BASIC program might be a starting point.

I'd be kind of curious how well a system handles "large integer values"

As I recall, the BASIC on the IBM5110 was good for integers up to about 15 digits (meaning I think it could handle the modern-day value of the national debt without resorting to floating point values), e.g. X=34556911341781 ). I think the Microsoft derived BASICs went up to about 10 digits (so X=987654321 would work). Relevant since using the last two digits as cents, those micros would struggle in accounting for business in the $10 million range or higher (at least as-is out of the box; obviously more robust languages could, and were, developed eventually).

Just to show this difference, here is the IBM5110 emulator vs a typical Microsoft-derived BASIC (Commodore BASIC V2 in this case). Floating point is ok for chemist (mole-counts) and astronomers, but not so great for finances or census-population counts. So that's neat, a stock 5110 could still be used to serve out the accounting of the modern debt (with room to spare to still go 10x that amount, but not 100x more). Whereas a typical home-micro would start to unaccount for about $40K of debt (just due to "auto-switching" over to a floating type; I suppose it comes down to the implementation decision of how much RAM to reserve for string/numeric conversions?)

krebizfan · Apr 28, 2024

There were Business BASICs available for many micros. Business BASIC focused on accurate integer math. Those were the competition to the BASICs IBM used with mainframes and mid-range systems. However, Business BASIC was not going to fit in an 8K ROM like MS BASIC did.

voidstar78 · Apr 29, 2024

Right, that what I meant as "out of the box" and what "turn key" capability they included (in ROM). The 5100/5110's also included an extensive "solver" library (on tape), with BASIC and APL source. So part of the expense was that bundled ROM and packaged software, and it's always subjective on how much value a given software has to a particular end user. I'd say for something like a department store or medical office, there was probably enough value (with features like LINK, CHAIN, and UTIL SORT).

Reading back through the 5110 BASIC manual, I just learned a few things about the 5110: (1) it's BASIC defaults to a double precision float (15-digit, 8 byte storage). If you do RUNS (instead of RUN) it overrides the default and uses single precision instead (7-digit, 4 byte storage). I'll have to see how much that impacts runtime. (2) Also you can define PROC (procedure) files, which are just scripted set of commands as if typed from the keyboard (I knew they had macros -- "SAVE KEY" command, but PROC files have more capability - for example, in there you can have "RUN IN=P" inside the PROC file and the subsequent input to the running program will stream in from the procedure file; so you can define some fancy batch processing). (3) Recall the preprocessor in C has __LINE__, this BASIC has a similar feature with &LINE (and other error handling stuff, like &REC for last file record that was being handled).

See below, the same program with RUN vs RUNS...

Anyhow, sure, any (Turing complete) hardware could have this same software capability -- the early Datapoint 2200 shows even a 1-bit serial processor can (eventually) do anything a more capable system can do. Whether it's a mechanical crank, a 1 MHz potato, or a 5GHz FPGA, it's just that the software has to be re-developed to that instruction set (or emulated- which if you can spin that program counter crank fast enough without over-heating, then emulation is fine). I tend to think the fan and "vent horn" on the 5100 was overkill - but then again, there was less AC back in the 70s, and they wanted the system to work outside.

cjs · Apr 29, 2024

Al Kossow said:
I don't think there is any intention of rearanging messages, too many links would break.

As far as I can tell, moving messages between forums and subforums breaks nothing in the link, since the links include no information about which forum/subforum the message is in.

Al Kossow · Apr 29, 2024

I got confused between this and the old messaging system.
I do like the new arrangement.

Where are the 5110, 5120 and 5130 posts?

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